femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 191

Today's Topics:
Re: Stretching Limits:
Global FS depends on motivated GIRLS
Re: Global FS depends on motivated GIRLS
Re: Global FS depends on motivated GIRLS
FS-minicommunities depend on LADIES effords
Re: Global FS depends on motivated GIRLS
Re: FS-minicommunities depend on LADIES effords
Re: Global FS depends on motivated GIRLS
Re: Global FS depends on motivated GIRLS
Re: Greetings
A Safe Place? Xantippe's welcome.
Re: Working for Her
Re: Dungeons for rent?
Just saw 12 Monkeys on PPV
Re: Greetings

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 05:24:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chase Vogelsberg
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com (FemSupremacy)
Subject: Re: Stretching Limits:
Message-Id: <199608271224.FAA11253@eskimo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Kalika wrote:

> I feel that it is solidly the responsibility of the male, as the
> representative of the male principle, to accede to the wishes / desires of
> the Goddess. In doing so, he may, if it has been previously agreed to, or if
> this is an occasion of "open" dialog ... he may then offer to Her, his
> readiness to assist Her in the expansion of Her "horizons". However, if this
> has not been agreed to previously, and it is not now a time of open dialog /
> discussion, then he must wait until such a time occurs. At no time, should
> he make even the *slightest* effort to "push" his desires / wishes, on Her.
>
> If She allows him to make this offering, but She declines for whatever
> reason (an no reason need be given IMHO), the matter is *closed* until the
> next scheduled "dialog". Certainly, a Goddess may find pleasure in knowing
> that Her male wishes to "extend" himself in order to please / pleasure Her
> ... and this knowledge, when properly offered, can in and of itself, be a
> source of pleasure for Her, even if She has no interest in such an
> expansion, at this time.
>
> IMHO, males need to learn patience ... they need to learn to subdue the male
> ego and focus on the wishes of the Goddess, ... to remain quiet ... to
> observe and learn ... to accept deference to Her as a natural occurance.
> (This could also, sometimes, be taken to apply to males on this List .)
>
> In so doing, he will grow both in his ability to please Her, and also his
> opportunity to experience the joy, the bliss that can occur when the ego is
> made quiet and the true essence of the male principle then comes forth. This
> is an occasion of joy for all ... it is, really, a natural thing.

Well, I'm not going to go off over your early use of 'always', and I most
certainly agree that most people, probably males above all, should learn
a lot more patience. But I may take some exception with the last sentence,
first quoted paragraph, "At no time should he make the *slightest* effort
to push his desires on Her."

Now, I note also the references to dialogs in which the male can express
himself, presumably in terms of his feelings, needs, and desires, and I do
see where these might be sufficient to allay my concerns. It'd all depend
on the frequency and nature of the dialogs, and how much communication was
allowed on the part of the male....

If they're infrequent enough, then I personally wouldn't think it improper
for him to bring something to the Lady's attention. 'Pushing' his wishes
on her, perhaps, but hopefully not in a demanding way. For instance....
He might be getting stressed out, perhaps from a need for a little more af-
fection, perhaps a need for the catharsis of some pain. If it's been too
long since a period of open communication in which he was formally allowed
to bring such matters up, I wouldn't think it improper for him to subtly
bring it to his Lady's attention - she may be Goddess, but she's probably
not omniscient.

The key, imo, is patience - not expecting instant gratification, and not
bringing it up at the first pangs of longing. Acceding to her will is all
good and fine, yes; indeed, I'd think that he should be going out of his
way to please her, before bringing something up. But it's still a
relationship, one in which both (or all) party's needs must be met, else
the relationship is likely to eventually self-destruct.

Again, I'm not sure that what Kalika wrote, and meant, is contrary to what
I just did; just a matter of slightly differing emphasis.

-- \_awless is : A wolf, wild at heart, with a heart of darkness.
-- Chase Vogelsberg (lawless@netcom.com / lawless@eskimo.com)
--
-- The trouble with hell is that the ambient temperature is above the flash
-- point of alcohol. Which means you can't linger over your drink.
-- Alexis A Gilliland

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 08:24:46 -0500
From: sorceress@CYBEROTI.COM
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Global FS depends on motivated GIRLS
Message-ID:

FE>Only when the younger generation*girls* are
FE>stimulated to Female Superiority, FS wil be able to expand to a dynamic worl
FE>with political power.
FE>Please forward opinions and ideas.

FE>_Xantippe Movement_.

I have two daughters, aged 23 & 26, who are both
powerful, well-educated and devout feminists.

Each has devoted her professional life to adressing
the problems of powerlessness in less fortunate
women's lives.

So, we are on our way!

B
CybErotiComm Online

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: 27 Aug 96 09:42:11 EDT
From: Marissa <103267.1522@CompuServe.COM>
To: "INTERNET:femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Re: Global FS depends on motivated GIRLS
Message-ID: <960827134211_103267.1522_IHH41-1@CompuServe.COM>

Xantippe writes:

>Only when the younger generation*girls* are
stimulated to Female Superiority, FS wil be able to expand to a dynamic
worldwide movement
with political power.
Please forward opinions and ideas.

_Xantippe Movement_<<br />
Actually, what younger generation Women require are positive Female role models
that demonstrate what is possible in their lives both personally and
professionally. Then and only then may FS grow to its full potential.

I grew up with a mother who was a university professor who also demonstrated
through her support of my actions that anything I wished to try for was
obtainable. Additionally, she was extremely comfortable and confident in her
sexuality and self-image. We shared many happy hours discussing my
hopes/desires/fears for the future as well as a number of conversation about how
better things might be if Women were viewed differently.

It was also obvious now in retrospect that my household was a microcosm of FS in
action as Mom was the breadwinner and Dad deferred to her on most key issues. He
also adored and worshipped her. From this setting I am sure I formulated my
opinions and then added to them relative to FS. I only hope that if and when
someday I have a Daughter, I can be half as successful with her as Mom was with
me.

Marissa

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 07:32:41 -0700
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com
To: xantippe@cd-online.nl
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Global FS depends on motivated GIRLS
Message-Id: <1996827103422341@ix.netcom.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

On 08/27/96 14:07:07 you wrote:
>
>Only when the younger generation*girls* are
>stimulated to Female Superiority, FS wil be able to expand to a dynamic
worldwide movement
>with political power.
>Please forward opinions and ideas.
>
>_Xantippe Movement_.

Thanks for reminding me...who is this "xantippe movement" person, and why
the hell should any true femdoms give a feather or a fig for "her" opinion?

Pretty arrogant shit, posing as a whole damn movement...I assume there is
at least one actual person behind this so-called movement, and I'd
ordinarily like to know who the hell it is, but in this case I have been
given no good reason. If "xantippe movement"'s expressed views were at
least fresh, either heartfelt or interesting or both, then maybe I'd be
intrigued, but the way it stands, it looks like some lonely sub trying to
defraud femdom women into corresponding via email.

As for the idea of uniting femdoms and female supremacists worldwide, lots
of us are already working on it and have been for decades, and no Janie-
come-lately who doesn't know her history and who has no name is going to
improve much on the good work that's already been done.



Laura Goodwin

Siddartha could wait, think and fast. I can do
all that plus sing, dance, act and write. Good
thing I know how to fast!

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 13:32:54 -0500
From: sorceress@CYBEROTI.COM
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: FS-minicommunities depend on LADIES effords
Message-ID:

FE>We are looking for LADIES/GIRLS for the promotion,set up,and management of a
FE>inwhere the later global FS is imitated.
FE>Please respond.
FE>No submales..unless intended to sponsor
FE>support,or contribute.

FE>_Xantippe Movement_.

May I have more information, please?
CybErotiComm Online

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 14:50:19 -0700
From: Patricia
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Global FS depends on motivated GIRLS
Message-ID: <32236D9B.1A12@tiac.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I agree with Laura....feels like junk mail to me...
Patricia...
introduction would have been nice

lalaura@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
> On 08/27/96 14:07:07 you wrote:
> >
> >Only when the younger generation*girls* are
> >stimulated to Female Superiority, FS wil be able to expand to a dynamic
> worldwide movement
> >with political power.
> >Please forward opinions and ideas.
> >
> >_Xantippe Movement_.
>
> Thanks for reminding me...who is this "xantippe movement" person, and why
> the hell should any true femdoms give a feather or a fig for "her" opinion?
>
> Pretty arrogant shit, posing as a whole damn movement...I assume there is
> at least one actual person behind this so-called movement, and I'd
> ordinarily like to know who the hell it is, but in this case I have been
> given no good reason. If "xantippe movement"'s expressed views were at
> least fresh, either heartfelt or interesting or both, then maybe I'd be
> intrigued, but the way it stands, it looks like some lonely sub trying to
> defraud femdom women into corresponding via email.
>
> As for the idea of uniting femdoms and female supremacists worldwide, lots
> of us are already working on it and have been for decades, and no Janie-
> come-lately who doesn't know her history and who has no name is going to
> improve much on the good work that's already been done.
>
> Laura Goodwin
>
> Siddartha could wait, think and fast. I can do
> all that plus sing, dance, act and write. Good
> thing I know how to fast!
>
> ___________________________________________________________________
> Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
> For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
> mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 14:51:37 -0700
From: Patricia
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: FS-minicommunities depend on LADIES effords
Message-ID: <32236DE9.7D42@tiac.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

besides...i am neither a lady or a girl...nor do I aspire to be one....
Patricia

sorceress@CYBEROTI.COM wrote:
>
> FE>We are looking for LADIES/GIRLS for the promotion,set up,and management of a
> FE>inwhere the later global FS is imitated.
> FE>Please respond.
> FE>No submales..unless intended to sponsor
> FE>support,or contribute.
>
> FE>_Xantippe Movement_.
>
> May I have more information, please?
> CybErotiComm Online
>
> ___________________________________________________________________
> Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
> For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
> mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 12:34:43 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chase Vogelsberg
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Global FS depends on motivated GIRLS
Message-Id: <199608271934.MAA19452@eskimo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Noble Patricia wrote:
> I agree with Laura....feels like junk mail to me...
> Patricia...
> introduction would have been nice

> lalaura@ix.netcom.com wrote:
> > Thanks for reminding me...who is this "xantippe movement" person, and why
> > the hell should any true femdoms give a feather or a fig for "her" opinion?

This Xantippe person appears to be a male, 52 years old, over in Europe,
with a persecution complex and plans to come to the USA, who among other
things is looking for some generous soul to house him in the name of
furthering female supremacy. :)

Aren't you glad you asked for an introduction? Note: This information
culled from xantippe's -public- postings on alt.sex.femdom.

> > Pretty arrogant shit, posing as a whole damn movement...

*chuckle* Yep. I thought -I- was pretty arrogant, but.... ;-)

-- \_awless is : A wolf, wild at heart, with a heart of darkness.
-- Chase Vogelsberg (lawless@netcom.com / lawless@eskimo.com)
--
-- The trouble with hell is that the ambient temperature is above the flash
-- point of alcohol. Which means you can't linger over your drink.
-- Alexis A Gilliland

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 16:14:52 -0700
From: Patricia
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Global FS depends on motivated GIRLS
Message-ID: <3223816C.5A4C@tiac.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

good information and sleuthing.....good job
Patricia

Chase Vogelsberg wrote:

>
> This Xantippe person appears to be a male, 52 years old, over in Europe,
> with a persecution complex and plans to come to the USA, who among other
> things is looking for some generous soul to house him in the name of
> furthering female supremacy. :)
>
> Aren't you glad you asked for an introduction? Note: This information
> culled from xantippe's -public- postings on alt.sex.femdom.
>
> > > Pretty arrogant shit, posing as a whole damn movement...
>
> *chuckle* Yep. I thought -I- was pretty arrogant, but.... ;-)
>
> -- \_awless is : A wolf, wild at heart, with a heart of darkness.
> -- Chase Vogelsberg (lawless@netcom.com / lawless@eskimo.com)
> --
> -- The trouble with hell is that the ambient temperature is above the flash
> -- point of alcohol. Which means you can't linger over your drink.
> -- Alexis A Gilliland
>
> ___________________________________________________________________
> Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
> For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
> mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 13:49:21 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chase Vogelsberg
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Greetings
Message-Id: <199608272049.NAA26998@eskimo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Marissa and eric wrote:
> After awhile lurking and reading the wonderful postings on this list, I
> have decided to come out into the open. My name is Marissa and my husband
> is eric/maid erica. We have been involved in a FS lifestyle for a number
> of years and while I knew there were others like ourselves, I have never
> previously felt comfortable being open about it with others. My thanks to
> all of you for providing the environment in which to do so. We look
> forward to being active participants in the community.

Greetings an' salutations - nice to have you here with us, so to speak. :)
I'm glad to hear you found this a comfortable space / environment; not all
the people here on the list are FS (or even femdom) lifestylers, but I
think you'll find that anyone who isn't at least friendly towards such is
encouraged to leave the list faster than they joined. Then again, you've
been lurking a while, so you already know that. ;)

Blessed be,
Chase

PS: Dee-Anne, see? I -can- post a nice friendly something or other from
time to time.

-- \_awless is : A wolf, wild at heart, with a heart of darkness.
-- Chase Vogelsberg (lawless@netcom.com / lawless@eskimo.com)
--
-- The trouble with hell is that the ambient temperature is above the flash
-- point of alcohol. Which means you can't linger over your drink.
-- Alexis A Gilliland

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 14:11:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com (Female Supremacy List)
Subject: A Safe Place? Xantippe's welcome.
Message-Id: <199608272111.OAA23523@netcom14.netcom.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 2395

Friends-

I am doing my best to stay lurked until after the US Labor Day weekend and
possibly longer, at least until my new PC is here and up and I finish the
work I am doing at the behest of both my SWMBO and my Wise Woman teacher
(otherwise unnamed). I owe some of you private mail for some very kind
posts you have made, and I've got the guilts about that. But several posts
have prompted me to post before I should.

'Twas I who wrote to the Xantippe 'movement' and invited 'them' to join us
here and on alt.women.supremacy. When I did this, I had all the Usenet
information noted by Lawless and had in mind all the usual reservations
expressed here today and some of my own as well: it's the cops, it's a
19-year-old guy in a turned around baseball cap eating chocolate-chip
cookies, it's a 52-old-guy (which makes him almost =my= age, Heaven
forfend), it's the Religious Reich, etc. It even occurred to me that
_mirabile dictu_ they could be who they say they are!

Usually when I privately write to people to tell them about this List, I
make sure to say something like, 'as long as you don't flame and treat
everyone with respect it's a _safe place_.' It has always been a safe
place for me with my _really_ nutty Dead White Male ideas and less than
Ladylike attitude, for which I am grateful to all of you: can't it also
be that way for someone whose only real difficulty seems to be a less
than perfect command of English and a slight cluelessness about the good
work that has been done before, on & off the Net?

Forgive me all this effrontery from a sincere if bratty little brother,
but I find this reception of Xantippe something less than Sisterly.

Besides, I'd like to hear a _lot_ more about their idea of networked
small FS communities, because, like it or not, the time of tribalism is
upon us, folks. Chou-En-Lai said, "Let a hundred flowers bloom."

Peace to all, and welcome Xantippe, whoever you are :)
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it count.
The rest is hidden.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 15:05:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Working for Her
Message-Id: <199608272205.PAA29673@netcom14.netcom.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 3597

Thanks to the wonderfully supple mind of the mysteriously named zbobz and
to our new friends Marissa and eric -to whom Welcome!- for this inspired
thread.

THe resaon I haven't been posting here is because I have been up to my
uhm, eyeballs in Working For Her -several Hers, in fact- these last
several weeks. This in fact has been my life for the last 4 or 5 years,
and it is getting more and more like this all the time.

All of my customers/clients except one are now Women, and all of the
people I work with -they can no longer be called 'subcontractors,' can
they?- on different jobs are Women. It's a loose gaggle -call it a guild
if you wish- of mostly post-corporate entrepreneuses who are very aware of
themselves both as Women and as sovereign in the market and elsewhere in
public life. One is my SWMBO of some years, others are longtime friends,
some are fairly new but trusted acquaintances.

This arrangement now extends to well beyond making a living: my spiritual
life, my money (such as it is) and most other aspects of my life are now
in the hands of Women. My MD is still male- a very enlightened one- but
that's about it.

There are other men in this community here and there, but the whole tone
and spirit of all that we do is manifestly Feminine. Not only are we
post-corporate, but live by the values of cooperation, communication,
trust and a loosely circular view of power relationships. Most of us feel
that we have transcended- and will outlive- the old economic model of
competition, covetousness, exclusion, cynicism and hierarchy. We feel that
we actually understand capital and investment in a way that the good ol'
boys -whom I have deserted- never did. And when we're cookin,' the money
is pretty good, too. :)
but
We are not Utopia: Earlier this summer I took a real economic hit because
I strayed back into the old way of thinking about business relationships,
and it will take me a year or two at least to dig out of that little hole.
But this time I have the Big Sisters, the guild, the Tribe, by whatever
name, there to help me and wish me well, and to keep me busy. :)

The Women I work with, and their men, come in all flavors- some are 'in
the Life' with crops and needles, some are a rich French Vanilla; some are
as witchy as any of you, some are Christians; the ages range from late 20s
to about 60, 3 are straight, the majority are richly bi, a strong minority
are joyous, righteous dykes. All are Feminists of one stripe or another
and all have a rich sense of both personal and collective Womanhood. All
have a story of really hard times and have definitely paid their dues. In
other words, they're a lot like You. :) Whatever my current woes, in this
Sisterscape that surrounds me I am richly blessed.

Thanks to Marissa for giving us the 'look and feel' of a Womanshaped
workplace: It's a much saner, calmer place, and my impression is that
males who work for Women are far more realized as individuals and in
their creative echoes than those still trapped in the boys' club. Or so
it is with me (with or without the toenail polish- sounds yummy, I admit).

Free at last,
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it count.
The rest is hidden.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 19:10:45 -0800
From: leather@zephyr.net (leather)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Dungeons for rent?
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

jwaren wrote:

>does anyone know if it is possible to rent a room or whatever equipped as a
>dungeon with all the basics to set the proper mood ? To make this even more
>difficult might there be something of this nature located in the midwest ?

I don't know if you can access this publication in the midwest... but there
are a few mags out here that carry ads for this stuff. Check out T&A Times
and Erotica. You also might have some success in the current publication of
"The Black Book", published by Amador Communications, PO Box 31155, San
Fransisco, CA 94131-0155, Phone # (415) 282-7368... about $12-15.

Gotta run... good to see you on this supreme list!

fondly,
Leather

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><<br />
leather@zephyr.net Leather Me Adult Erotic Leather Toys
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the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 19:28:28 -0700
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Just saw 12 Monkeys on PPV
Message-Id: <1996827223021341@ix.netcom.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

I just saw the movie *12 Monkeys* (finally) and thought it totally rocked.
My kids didn't understand the ending...I said it's a happy ending, because
the lady scientist there on the plane means that they are wise to the bad
guys and will stop them, saving humanity. I believe it's possible that
even the Bruce Willis character can be saved, why not? They go back in
time, don't they? :)

I noticed lately lots of cool female characters in film. All the women in
*Pulp Fiction* weren't your usual molls. We are talking interesting women
characters who show intelligence and grit. They have adventurous lives.
The Doctor played by Madeline Stowe in *12 Monkeys* is an example.



Laura Goodwin

Siddartha could wait, think and fast. I can do
all that plus sing, dance, act and write. Good
thing I know how to fast!

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 20:33:23 -0700 (PDT)

Marissa wrote:
>
> After awhile lurking and reading the wonderful postings on this list, I have
> decided to come out into the open. My name is Marissa and my husband's name is
> eric/maid erica. We have been involved in a FS lifestyle for a number of years
> and while I knew there were others like ourselves, I have never previously felt
> comfortable being open about it with others. My thanks to all of you for
> providing the environment in which to do so. We look forward to being active
> participants in the community.

I'm so glad that you feel this list is a comfy place. :) Welcome!

Dee-Ann

the subject "help".

--------------------------------
End of femsupremacy-digest Digest V96 Issue #191
************************************************

From - Fri Aug 30 19:08:41 1996
------------------------------

Content-Type: text/plain

femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 192

Today's Topics:
Re: Global FS depends on motivated GIRLS
get your information correct TONY
Xantippe gets boofed up
Re: get your information correct TONY
Re: Xantippe gets boofed up
empusae has one of THOSE addresses
this one went wrong place too
Re: Working for Her
Re: A Safe Place? Xantippe's welcome.
Re: empusae has one of THOSE addresses
Re: this one went wrong place too
Re: get your information correct TONY
Re: empusae has one of THOSE addresses

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 21:39:51 -0700
You wrote:
>
>I agree with Laura....feels like junk mail to me...
>Patricia...
>introduction would have been nice
>
>lalaura@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>>
>> On 08/27/96 14:07:07 you wrote:
>> >
>> >Only when the younger generation*girls* are
>> >stimulated to Female Superiority, FS wil be able to expand to a
dynamic
>> worldwide movement
>> >with political power.
>> >Please forward opinions and ideas.
>> >
>> >_Xantippe Movement_.
>>
>> Thanks for reminding me...who is this "xantippe movement" person,
and why
>> the hell should any true femdoms give a feather or a fig for "her"
opinion?
>>
>> Pretty arrogant shit, posing as a whole damn movement...I assume
there is

Patricia:

Doesn't what you just said above (i.e., "[P]retty arrogant shit")
constitute a flame? And isn't flaming against the spirit and the
by-rules of this mailing list? I believe it is a flame, in that (1)
you labelled the poster's message as "arrogant" without making a
good-faith effort at understanding what her/his motives and underlying
messages were; (2) you added fuel to the rhetorical fire by further
labelling these posts "shit", metaphorically slapping the poster in the
face before you learned anything about her/his ideas. (All in all,
these sound like typically male "Neanderthal" tactics, to me!) And to
think that a few months ago, I was berated summarily by many of the
regular contributors to this group (including, I believe, yourself) for
using somewhat milder language in response to what I still contend were
pretty outrageous falsehoods, be they witting or unwitting.

Also, how do you know that these posts from "xantippe" are aimed at
"femdoms"? That is a big assumption. Maybe they are simply aimed at
proponents of female supremacy, like myself, who have nothing to do
with classic BDSM, and who have never practiced it on the giving or
receiving end. The only criticism I can rightly level at these posts
is that they are too brief and the English is not perfect. Otherwise,
they are interesting and provocative, and I sincerely wish the poster
would further elucidate her/his ideas about female supremacy, even if
she/he is having a little trouble communicating in perfect English (we
all make mistakes from time to time).

Come on, xantippe, let's hear more!

Tony

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 01:41:58 -0700
From: Patricia
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: get your information correct TONY
Message-ID: <32240656.7BE9@tiac.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

excuse me Tony..i don't know what your beef against me is but.....I did
not write the statement: pretty arrogant shit....what is your
problem....I did not deserve the first crap you gave me...and I
certainly don't deserve this one....It was Laura who wrote the
original..."> >> Pretty arrogant shit, posing as a whole damn
movement." If you would thoughtfully read your email instead of blindly
thrashing about for something I might have done wrong..so you can attack
me again...you would have known that.

You still have never apologized to me for the first one, and you will
probably never apologize for this one either. You are continually an
abuser...and this is the final straw.
I am asking you to get off of this list, or I will. You are negative,
destructive and looking for a woman to abuse...I will not let you have
at me twice. In the real world once would have thrown you out on your
ass. But even in this world I do not deserve and will not allow myself
to be a victim of your misplaced,ignorant, testosterone driven, blind
wrath.

So Laura he's talking about what you said here, and I assume you have
some feelings about his attack on you as well......

As to the continuation of these advertisements by X...this is a
community of people first. Throwing wild advertisements here is
inappropriate without first introducing yourself and having some sense
of our community. It feels like going to sleep in a house on a country
lane that you have worked hard to preserve to wake up finding someone
has put a flashing neon sign on the quiet road while you slept...almost
like an invasion.
Patricia

Tony wrote:

> >>
> >> Pretty arrogant shit, posing as a whole damn movement...I assume
> there is
>
> Patricia:
>
> Doesn't what you just said above (i.e., "[P]retty arrogant shit")
> constitute a flame? And isn't flaming against the spirit and the
> by-rules of this mailing list? I believe it is a flame, in that (1)
> you labelled the poster's message as "arrogant" without making a
> good-faith effort at understanding what her/his motives and underlying
> messages were; (2) you added fuel to the rhetorical fire by further
> labelling these posts "shit", metaphorically slapping the poster in the
> face before you learned anything about her/his ideas. (All in all,
> these sound like typically male "Neanderthal" tactics, to me!) And to
> think that a few months ago, I was berated summarily by many of the
> regular contributors to this group (including, I believe, yourself) for
> using somewhat milder language in response to what I still contend were
> pretty outrageous falsehoods, be they witting or unwitting.
>
> Also, how do you know that these posts from "xantippe" are aimed at
> "femdoms"? That is a big assumption. Maybe they are simply aimed at
> proponents of female supremacy, like myself, who have nothing to do
> with classic BDSM, and who have never practiced it on the giving or
> receiving end. The only criticism I can rightly level at these posts
> is that they are too brief and the English is not perfect. Otherwise,
> they are interesting and provocative, and I sincerely wish the poster
> would further elucidate her/his ideas about female supremacy, even if
> she/he is having a little trouble communicating in perfect English (we
> all make mistakes from time to time).
>
> Come on, xantippe, let's hear more!
>
> Tony
>
> ___________________________________________________________________
> Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
> For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
> mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 09:11:53 +0200
From: xantippe@cd-online.nl (xantippe)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Xantippe gets boofed up
Message-Id: <199608280711.AAA16821@davinci.renaissoft.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Non original-primary thinking will not lead to anything. Thank God it has creative people among *like cs*.

_Xantippe MOVEMENT_

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 06:58:26 -0500
From: kriv@interlog.com (peter)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: get your information correct TONY
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I vote for Patricia to remain and Tony to leave.
Patricia, please do us a favor and just delete his postings when you see
they've arrived.
peter
>
>
>excuse me Tony..i don't know what your beef against me is but.....I did
>not write the statement: pretty arrogant shit....what is your
>problem....I did not deserve the first crap you gave me...and I
>certainly don't deserve this one....It was Laura who wrote the
>original..."> >> Pretty arrogant shit, posing as a whole damn
>movement." If you would thoughtfully read your email instead of blindly
>thrashing about for something I might have done wrong..so you can attack
>me again...you would have known that.
>
>You still have never apologized to me for the first one, and you will
>probably never apologize for this one either. You are continually an
>abuser...and this is the final straw.
>I am asking you to get off of this list, or I will. You are negative,
>destructive and looking for a woman to abuse...I will not let you have
>at me twice. In the real world once would have thrown you out on your
>ass. But even in this world I do not deserve and will not allow myself
>to be a victim of your misplaced,ignorant, testosterone driven, blind
>wrath.
>
>So Laura he's talking about what you said here, and I assume you have
>some feelings about his attack on you as well......
>
>As to the continuation of these advertisements by X...this is a
>community of people first. Throwing wild advertisements here is
>inappropriate without first introducing yourself and having some sense
>of our community. It feels like going to sleep in a house on a country
>lane that you have worked hard to preserve to wake up finding someone
>has put a flashing neon sign on the quiet road while you slept...almost
>like an invasion.
>Patricia
>
>Tony wrote:
>
>> >>
>> >> Pretty arrogant shit, posing as a whole damn movement...I assume
>> there is
>>
>> Patricia:
>>
>> Doesn't what you just said above (i.e., "[P]retty arrogant shit")
>> constitute a flame? And isn't flaming against the spirit and the
>> by-rules of this mailing list? I believe it is a flame, in that (1)
>> you labelled the poster's message as "arrogant" without making a
>> good-faith effort at understanding what her/his motives and underlying
>> messages were; (2) you added fuel to the rhetorical fire by further
>> labelling these posts "shit", metaphorically slapping the poster in the
>> face before you learned anything about her/his ideas. (All in all,
>> these sound like typically male "Neanderthal" tactics, to me!) And to
>> think that a few months ago, I was berated summarily by many of the
>> regular contributors to this group (including, I believe, yourself) for
>> using somewhat milder language in response to what I still contend were
>> pretty outrageous falsehoods, be they witting or unwitting.
>>
>> Also, how do you know that these posts from "xantippe" are aimed at
>> "femdoms"? That is a big assumption. Maybe they are simply aimed at
>> proponents of female supremacy, like myself, who have nothing to do
>> with classic BDSM, and who have never practiced it on the giving or
>> receiving end. The only criticism I can rightly level at these posts
>> is that they are too brief and the English is not perfect. Otherwise,
>> they are interesting and provocative, and I sincerely wish the poster
>> would further elucidate her/his ideas about female supremacy, even if
>> she/he is having a little trouble communicating in perfect English (we
>> all make mistakes from time to time).
>>
>> Come on, xantippe, let's hear more!
>>
>> Tony
>>
>> ___________________________________________________________________
>> Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
>> For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
>> mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".
>


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 07:24:22 +0000
From: "Empusae"
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Xantippe gets boofed up
Message-Id: <199608281125.LAA170611@smtp-gw01.ny.us.ibm.net>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

> Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 09:11:53 +0200
> To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
> From: xantippe@cd-online.nl (xantippe)
> Subject: Xantippe gets boofed up
> Reply-to: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com

> Non original-primary thinking will not lead to anything. Thank God it has creative people among *like cs*.
>
> _Xantippe MOVEMENT_


>From the looks of the postings, you certainly have stirred up alot of
non-original primary thinking...like "I dont like you and what you
say, so I am going to take my toys and go home.

Empusae


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 08:00:06 -0700
From: Patricia
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: empusae has one of THOSE addresses
Message-ID: <32245EF6.1CE2@tiac.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

and what the Hera does non-original primary thinking mean. If it is not
original...it is a copy of something else. If it is primary ...like the
primary numbers it is unique onto itself and cannot be divided by any
other number but itself...
so I guess we are being accused of not original, original
thinking....heavy....my mere female brain reels
is it related to snakes and original sin?

"The time has come,"
the Walrus said, "To talk of many things:
of shoes,
and ships,
and sealing wax,
of cabbages and kings,
and why the sea is boiling hot,
and whether pigs have wings."
from: Lewis Carroll, Alice in Wonderland

Patricia

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 08:01:41 -0700
From: Patricia
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: this one went wrong place too
Message-ID: <32245F55.6D0F@tiac.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

what is happening to this list. it is deteriorating quickly.
if this person would have introduced themselves instead of flooding my
mail box with some message for ladies and girls....
who is taking their toys and going home...my message to tony had nothing
to do with the X stuff...if this is going to become the femsupremacy
place ads for whatever you want list....it is not what I joined for.

I joined to dialogue with intelligent women and men and not be drowned
in ads from strangers.
Patricia

Empusae wrote:
>
> > Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 09:11:53 +0200
> > To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
> > From: xantippe@cd-online.nl (xantippe)
> > Subject: Xantippe gets boofed up
> > Reply-to: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
>
> > Non original-primary thinking will not lead to anything. Thank God it has creative people among *like cs*.
> >
> > _Xantippe MOVEMENT_
>
> >From the looks of the postings, you certainly have stirred up alot of
> non-original primary thinking...like "I dont like you and what you
> say, so I am going to take my toys and go home.
>
> Empusae

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 08:34:59 -0400
From: Oldlow@aol.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Working for Her
Message-ID: <960828083458_395871825@emout10.mail.aol.com>

The correspondence about working for her struck a deep chord in my memory.
For some years I ran my own small consultancy to Computer Graphics firms.
About eight years ago, I worked for one such which was quite a substantial
competitor in the commercial typesetting business. The CEO was a woman in her
forties named Martha. Gradually, she spent more and more time with me. Our
relationship lasted about two years. In the beginning, our awareness of the
unspoken nature of it excited us both, I think. There never was an overt
sexual component, but I had a deeply satisfying time of it, and, I like to
think she did, too.
Within months, I found myself accepting a vice-presidency in her company, but
Martha also allowed me to assume the duties of a private secretary. We flew
back and forth between Boston and one or another European city about once a
month. Martha spoke no European languages. I do, so I think I was as useful
arranging salon appointments as sales represeentative meetings. I could tell
when she was tiring, and would usualy arrange a cancellable appointment with
a beauty salon for late in the afternoon. She loved having facials. So did I,
but I never infringed on my position by asking to join her at the same salon.
Nevertheless, she recognized this and allowed me the time for my own small
pleasures, sometimes sending me off for a massage or facial she had already
paid for.
I did more and more for her. We shopped together. I hemmed and made small
alterations to her new purchases in my hotel room at night.
I'm sure she realized quite soon that I wore women's underwear as a matter of
habit, so, once when we were pressed for time in Hamburg, I offered to wash
some of her necessaries along with my own. After that, it was an unspoken
agreement. I took care of both our wardrobes, always going to her room in the
evening when I knew she wasn't there to collect the wash and to leave a
freshly-laundered and folded nightgown on her bed after I'd turned it down. I
helped with makeup, with long conferences on dressing, and with small details
of her person. More than once I gave her a pedicure of an evening when there
had been no time for a salon and there was an early flight in the morning. I
loved to see her glorying in her healthy womanhood. It made deeply happy in
the certainty that I had contributed some small component to her joy of life.
Martha was married, but her husband had another position. He never travelled
with her. Martha was by nature a dominant woman. I adored her and wondered
occasionally about her marriage. Perhaps it was not unlike her relationship
with me which based on unspoken acceptance of feminine dominance and
masculine submission.
During that time, the unacknowleged relationship we were enjoying gave me the
greatest delight. I think my actual work for the company was of a better
quality than I regularly could achieve because my relationship with Martha
was so deeply fulfilling. This suggests to me that as women become ever more
senior in business, as the glass ceiling shatters, there will be many men who
have the opportunity to find an important component of themselves and their
masculinity through submisive-dominant relationships with women at work, and
Isn't that an optimistic notion to treasure in these grey times?
Thank you for the chance to share this, and to recall that happy episode in
my life!
Malcolm

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 06:48:19 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chase Vogelsberg
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: A Safe Place? Xantippe's welcome.
Message-Id: <199608281348.GAA22589@eskimo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Coyote Sings wrote:
> 'Twas I who wrote to the Xantippe 'movement' and invited 'them' to join us
> here and on alt.women.supremacy. When I did this, I had all the Usenet
> information noted by Lawless and had in mind all the usual reservations
> expressed here today and some of my own as well: it's the cops, it's a
> 19-year-old guy in a turned around baseball cap eating chocolate-chip
> cookies, it's a 52-old-guy (which makes him almost =my= age, Heaven
> forfend), it's the Religious Reich, etc. It even occurred to me that
> _mirabile dictu_ they could be who they say they are!
>
> Usually when I privately write to people to tell them about this List, I
> make sure to say something like, 'as long as you don't flame and treat
> everyone with respect it's a _safe place_.' It has always been a safe
> place for me with my _really_ nutty Dead White Male ideas and less than
> Ladylike attitude, for which I am grateful to all of you: can't it also
> be that way for someone whose only real difficulty seems to be a less
> than perfect command of English and a slight cluelessness about the good
> work that has been done before, on & off the Net?

Feh. Coyote, I hadda a feeling someone told him about the list, but....
You actually read all Xantippe's Girlie ads (I won't call them posts) on
asfd an' invited him here, apparently without even thinking to suggest
that he/she/it/them lurk a while and -not- make the kinds of posts he did
on Usenet? I guess I'm not really surprised.... Not at all in a bad
kinda way, mind you - more a matter of you being -too- nice. ;)

> Forgive me all this effrontery from a sincere if bratty little brother,
> but I find this reception of Xantippe something less than Sisterly.

Less than Sisterly? I disagree - even sisters get a little peeved when
they start getting flooded with sloppy little notes basically asking
them to give their names, (email) addresses, and personal information to
someone who doesn't know them, doesn't bother to introduce themselves,
and addresses them in what feels like a patronizing kind of way.

> Besides, I'd like to hear a _lot_ more about their idea of networked
> small FS communities, because, like it or not, the time of tribalism is
> upon us, folks. Chou-En-Lai said, "Let a hundred flowers bloom."

*blink* Wasn't aware we'd heard -any- of his/their ideas - just someone
asking GIRLs and LADYs to contact him, and that males(submales) shouldn't
unless planning to offer financial support for what seems an awful lot
like personal fetishistic fantasies.

-- \_awless is : Chase Vogelsberg (lawless@netcom.com / lawless@eskimo.com)
-- In your head, no car is fast enough,
-- In your heart, no love is true.
-- Will it ruin all your solitary fancies
-- If I tell you that it isn't only you? -- Emma Bull

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 09:56:00 +0000
From: "The Night-Hag"
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: empusae has one of THOSE addresses
Message-Id: <199608281357.NAA121922@smtp-gw01.ny.us.ibm.net>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

> Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 08:00:06 -0700
> From: Patricia
> Organization: MAINartery
> To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
> Subject: empusae has one of THOSE addresses
> Reply-to: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com

> and what the Hera does non-original primary thinking mean. If it is not
> original...it is a copy of something else. If it is primary ...like the
> primary numbers it is unique onto itself and cannot be divided by any
> other number but itself...
> so I guess we are being accused of not original, original
> thinking....heavy....my mere female brain reels
> is it related to snakes and original sin?
>

I am not sure what you are trying to imply about my email address?
You have sent mulitple copies of this post in private email to me.
I have one of THOSE addresses? It is a simple address so that even
simple people can write to it. Empusae@ibm.net
Implying it is one of _ THOSE addresses_ might give someone the impression
I am from AOL.

Empusae...The Night-Hag

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 10:13:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: imagery@biddeford.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: this one went wrong place too
Message-Id: <199608281413.KAA02349@mail.biddeford.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 08:01 AM 8/28/96 -0700, you wrote:
>what is happening to this list. it is deteriorating quickly.
>if this person would have introduced themselves instead of flooding my
>mail box with some message for ladies and girls....
>who is taking their toys and going home...my message to tony had nothing
>to do with the X stuff...if this is going to become the femsupremacy
>place ads for whatever you want list....it is not what I joined for.
>
>I joined to dialogue with intelligent women and men and not be drowned
>in ads from strangers.
>Patricia

I am wondering if I am missing some of the posts from here, I haven't
been flooded with ads. I do agree with you; I look forward to intelligent
conversation too.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 07:24:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chase Vogelsberg
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: get your information correct TONY
Message-Id: <199608281424.HAA25127@eskimo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Great - on one hand we've got Tony once again demonstrating an inability
to read clearly when it gives him an opportunity to be catty and get
back at someone he has a grudge against, on the other, a good member of
the list laying down "Either you go or I go" ultimatums.

Sorry, Patricia - while I do understand where you're coming from, in not
wanting to read this list if you're going to have to wade through posts
like Tony's and Xantippe's, I do think it's going overboard, if not out
of line, to make such statements. I'd -much- rather see the two of them
leave then you, or Laura Goodwin, or Coyote -- but so long's its just one
or two such people that offend, you can always delete their posts without
reading. And then wait for social Darwinism to either induce them to
evolve, or to find an environmental niche more compatible with them.

Patricia concluded:
> As to the continuation of these advertisements by X...this is a
> community of people first. Throwing wild advertisements here is
> inappropriate without first introducing yourself and having some sense
> of our community. It feels like going to sleep in a house on a country
> lane that you have worked hard to preserve to wake up finding someone
> has put a flashing neon sign on the quiet road while you slept...almost
> like an invasion.

Exactly - it feels like sleazy advertisements showing up in your kitchen,
or in your Reader's Digest or what not.

-- \_awless is : A wolf, wild at heart, with a heart of darkness.
-- Chase Vogelsberg (lawless@netcom.com / lawless@eskimo.com)
--
-- The trouble with hell is that the ambient temperature is above the flash
-- point of alcohol. Which means you can't linger over your drink.
-- Alexis A Gilliland

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 07:28:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chase Vogelsberg
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com (FemSupremacy)
Subject: Re: empusae has one of THOSE addresses
Message-Id: <199608281428.HAA25509@eskimo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

The Night Hag wrote:
> I am not sure what you are trying to imply about my email address?
> You have sent mulitple copies of this post in private email to me.
> I have one of THOSE addresses? It is a simple address so that even
> simple people can write to it. Empusae@ibm.net
> Implying it is one of _ THOSE addresses_ might give someone the
> impression I am from AOL.

She's not implying anything - she's pointing out the fact that you've
one of those 'Reply-To:' lines that make people's automatic replies go
to you instead of the list. *That* is why you get multiple copies -
because they send it to you personally, notice, and resend to the list.

-- \_awless is : A wolf, wild at heart, with a heart of darkness.
-- Chase Vogelsberg (lawless@netcom.com / lawless@eskimo.com)
--
-- The trouble with hell is that the ambient temperature is above the flash
-- point of alcohol. Which means you can't linger over your drink.
-- Alexis A Gilliland

the subject "help".

--------------------------------
End of femsupremacy-digest Digest V96 Issue #192
************************************************

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------------------------------

Content-Type: text/plain

femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 194

Today's Topics:
Re: When Malcolm Worked For Her
Re: Global FS depends on motivated GIRLS
Submissive pushing dominant.
Discarding Women
Deterioration-.Xantippe gets the blaim
Re: Deterioration-.Xantippe gets the blaim
RE: Deterioration-.Xantippe gets the blaim
Deterioration-.Xantippe gets the blaim
Re: Deterioration-.Xantippe gets the blaim
Sandbox play can get pretty gritty
Is it Always Like This?
FS exciting in action
Re: Stretching Limits:
Re: Is it Always Like This?
Re: Deterioration-.Xantippe gets the blaim
Re: Deterioration-.Xantippe gets the blaim
Change of topic
Re: Deterioration-.Xantippe gets the blaim
books

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 19:42:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chase Vogelsberg
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: When Malcolm Worked For Her
Message-Id: <199608290242.TAA03641@eskimo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Paul/maidpaula wrote:

> Malcolm- No, thank *you* for relating your experience. Your views on
> female supremacy are enlightening and a pleasure to read.
>
> It sounds like it was a special and successful relationship for you both,
> albeit "unacknowledged". It will be interesting to see how
> employer-employee relations evolve over time as women achieve greater power
> in the business world. I imagine they will change for the better, but I
> also have a small fear that power is just plain corruptable to many,
> regardless of gender. I hope my fear is unfounded, only time will tell of
> course.

I agree - Malcolm's post was pleasant reading; not to mention something I
can relate to. I often do ver' good work, mostly when I'm keyed up over
something interesting or exciting that I'm doing. But, I consistently do
decent work at minimum when I've had a woman boss or coworker whom I liked
and respected - in essence, I did better because I'd be viewing it as doing
better for her. Given that I generally strive for a modicum of profession-
ality, they'd never know -why- I did better, but.... ;)

So far as the fear about power and corruptability, well.... Definately,
both genders are susceptable to being corrupted. But - power corrupts
most those who seek it for its own sake. And in general, I've found
that women tend to acquire or seek power secondarily, almost as a side
effect. They do good work - so they get promoted to management, super-
visory, or executive positions, despite a system often unfavorable to
them. Or they seek power - but because they need it for a reason, be it
to correct problems with school systems, or economic issues, or whatnot.

Those types, female or male, are less likely to be corrupted, or at least
to a lesser extent. An' given that I find them more often on the Goddess'
side of the gender line, I think things may well change for the better as
women continue to gain equal influence, and then more. :)

Regards,
Chase / Lawless

-- \_awless is : A wolf, wild at heart, with a heart of darkness.
-- Chase Vogelsberg (lawless@netcom.com / lawless@eskimo.com)
--
-- The trouble with hell is that the ambient temperature is above the flash
-- point of alcohol. Which means you can't linger over your drink.
-- Alexis A Gilliland

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 21:53:34 -0500
From: Roland Foy
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Global FS depends on motivated GIRLS
Message-ID: <3225062E.1125@pclink.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Good call Dee Ann. You have protected this group from
what was little more than a cyber-stalker (and an
inarticulate one at that).
Roland

Why did god(dess) create men first? You always start with the
proto-type, filled with bugs and imperfections. She did how-
ever create a rather nice finished product on the second try!

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 23:55:44 -0700
From: Spirit Wind
To: femsupremacy-digest@renaissoft.com
Subject: Submissive pushing dominant.
Message-ID: <32269070.B31@crosslink.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Laura wrote:
> I have been pushed a lot more than I have been
> persuaded, and persuasion is better. The problem arises when you have a
> dominant who is not into what you are into.

The trouble with most of us men is, we subtly try to manipulate our
wives and girlfriends into doing what turns us on, and we are not shy
about using manipulative, phony tricks to get what we want. It's bogus,
and wrong. Until we learn to stop being manipulative, and truly
submissive and quite, listening and obeying, we will never achieve true
spiritual calmness and bliss. To be truly submissive to a woman,
without trying to control, manipulate or get off, is an incredibly
wonderful experience. When you get to the point where you obey in
total, even only reaching shangrela at her command, you go into another
dimension that you can't reach by playing the shallow power and get off
games so popular among us men. The deeper sensuality achieved by being
totally consumed with a devotion to another, and to me that means one
special person with whom you share that bond exclusively, is deeply
spiritual and sexual, and absolutely guilt free. Guilt free sex is not
an oxymoron. Some like it better that way of course! OK, if you must,
fantasize if you need that bad boy feeling. It's not really necessary,
but different strokes for different folks.(man, can you have fun with
that one) Bliss? Oh yeah.
Ecstasy? Oh yeah. Calm, yet excited, submissive yet exhilarated, and
strong yet totally weak and enraptured. Sounds like love to me!

Peace and bliss to you my friends,
(For David: the bible, the bible, the bible,
thump thump thump...................NOT!!!)

Love and kisses,

Spirit Wind

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 00:17:01 -0700
From: Spirit Wind
To: femsupremacy-digest@renaissoft.com
CC: Patricia Noble
Subject: Discarding Women
Message-ID: <3226956D.51C2@crosslink.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Patricia wrote:
> what happens to your pure Amazon athelete..when gravity sets
> in...discard her for newer, tighter model...(that sounds familiar), what
> happens when your female athelete gets breast cancer and has to have one
> or both removed to save her life.

Patricia, you always get right down to the core issue don't you. Love
means a person is worthwhile no matter what their sexual value may be.
You are sometimes confrontational and abrasive, but you are always
passionate, sincere, and usually right. I vote for the older, looser,
breast less model, the overweight, less desirable according to the
Madison Avenue, thin adoring society we live in. It's what's on the
inside that counts, as you already know. If a man leaves his lady
because she is sick or disfigured, or getting old, or fat or in any way
less than the ideal, he is one shallow, foolish looser who doesn't
deserve the love of a loyal devoted woman. He can go off in search of a
bimbo to use, and they deserve each other. People are people, she isn't
a rock, a playground, a sex machine, Santa clause, a vending machine to
get out of whatever we WANT, SHE IS A PERSON, WORTHY OF RESPECT AND
LOYALTY.
You are a courageous woman, who always says what she believes, and
dares to be open and vulnerable, and I salute you for that. Your all
right my friend.

Spirit Wind

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 13:48:16 +0200
From: xantippe@cd-online.nl (xantippe)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Deterioration-.Xantippe gets the blaim
Message-Id: <199608291148.EAA20975@davinci.renaissoft.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Laura>Patricia>Tony>Peter>e.o. generated a chainreaction which is deteriorating this list.Do you all let this happen because we (xantippe) failed (as we did) to introduce ourselves properly and in time? We overhere can not believe that.Are you not cheating yourself by thinking that Xantippe initiated the said chainreaction? Feeling invaded by a * xantippe text* on the screen? It can so easy be deleted..are you faking? might be out of a urge need for attention? Just get rid of your old grudges and don't kick newcomers before they are even aware of their own*maidentrip imperfections*.

Xantippe Movement.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 08:04:21 -0500 (CDT)
From: rrlelnd@escape.ca (David Land)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Deterioration-.Xantippe gets the blaim
Message-Id: <199608291304.IAA27746@wpg-01.escape.ca>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Well here's another victim statement from old Xantippe. I know where MY
delete key is.
I was wondering about that word, Xantippe. Is
it Greek for drivel?

>Laura>Patricia>Tony>Peter>e.o. generated a chainreaction which is
deteriorating this list.Do you all let this happen because we (xantippe)
failed (as we did) to introduce ourselves properly and in time? We overhere
can not believe that.Are you not cheating yourself by thinking that Xantippe
initiated the said chainreaction? Feeling invaded by a * xantippe text* on
the screen? It can so easy be deleted..are you faking? might be out of a
urge need for attention? Just get rid of your old grudges and don't kick
newcomers before they are even aware of their own*maidentrip imperfections*.
>
>Xantippe Movement.
>
>___________________________________________________________________
>Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
>For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
>mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".
>
>
>

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 08:42:40 -0500
From: STALEY
To: "'femsupremacy@renaissoft.com'"
Subject: RE: Deterioration-.Xantippe gets the blaim
Message-ID: <01BB9586.136BAA80@modem03.cadvantage.com>
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BB9586.136BAA80"

------ =_NextPart_000_01BB9586.136BAA80
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please unsubscribe us after all this is not femsupremacy but =
childsupremacy your system finds us to send the childishness let your =
system find us to unsubscribe us
THANK YOU!!!!!! =20

----------
From: David Land[SMTP:rrlelnd@escape.ca]
Sent: Thursday, August 29, 1996 3:04 AM
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Deterioration-.Xantippe gets the blaim

Well here's another victim statement from old Xantippe. I know where MY
delete key is.
I was wondering about that word, Xantippe. Is
it Greek for drivel?

>Laura>Patricia>Tony>Peter>e.o. generated a chainreaction which is
deteriorating this list.Do you all let this happen because we (xantippe)
failed (as we did) to introduce ourselves properly and in time? We =
overhere
can not believe that.Are you not cheating yourself by thinking that =
Xantippe
initiated the said chainreaction? Feeling invaded by a * xantippe text* =
on
the screen? It can so easy be deleted..are you faking? might be out of a
urge need for attention? Just get rid of your old grudges and don't kick
newcomers before they are even aware of their own*maidentrip =
imperfections*.
>
>Xantippe Movement.
>
>___________________________________________________________________
>Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
>For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
>mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".
>
>
>

the subject "help".


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the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 09:45:50 -0500
From: sorceress@CYBEROTI.COM
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Deterioration-.Xantippe gets the blaim
Message-ID:

FE>Laura>Patricia>Tony>Peter>e.o. generated a chainreaction which is deteriorat

FE>Xantippe Movement.

Well, I'd say that if your first posts were inoccuous,
even interesting, I'd say *this* one is pretty pompous
and arrogant!

Thank you, I am no longer interested.
CybErotiComm Online

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 09:56:30 -0700
From: Patricia
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Deterioration-.Xantippe gets the blaim
Message-ID: <3225CBBE.557C@tiac.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

please wordwrap
patricia

xantippe wrote:
>
> Laura>Patricia>Tony>Peter>e.o. generated a chainreaction which is deteriorating this list.Do you all let this happen because we (xantippe) failed (as we did) to introduce ourselves properly and in time? We overhere can not believe that.Are you not cheating yourself by thinking that Xantippe initiated the said chainreaction? Feeling invaded by a * xantippe text* on the screen? It can so easy be deleted..are you faking? might be out of a urge need for attention? Just get rid of your old grudges an
>
> Xantippe Movement.
>
> ___________________________________________________________________
> Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
> For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
> mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 12:08:09 +0000
From: "The Night-Hag"
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Sandbox play can get pretty gritty
Message-Id: <199608291613.QAA87235@smtp-gw01.ny.us.ibm.net>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

> From: STALEY
> To: "'femsupremacy@renaissoft.com'"
> Subject: RE: Deterioration-.Xantippe gets the blaim
> Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 08:42:40 -0500
> Reply-to: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com

> please unsubscribe us after all this is not femsupremacy but childsupremacy your system finds us to send the childishness let your system find us to unsubscribe us
> THANK YOU!!!!!!
>
Buttons, buttons....PUSH!!!

I have to agree, with watching all the "pushing and shoving" going on,
I am beginning to wonder about the validity of the above statement.
I'm reminded of a child's game, called " Buttons,buttons, who's got the
buttons"..and once you find out..you *push* it.

It takes much more wisdom, maturity, and control to respond to
someone than it does to react to them. Children, because they are
immature, react. However, those who are hoping to reign Supreme
need to learn to take the time to think through what they are saying
and use their wisdom to find an appropriate response.

The Night-Hag

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: 29 Aug 96 14:25:03 EDT
From: Marissa <103267.1522@CompuServe.COM>
To: Femsupremacy
Subject: Is it Always Like This?
Message-ID: <960829182503_103267.1522_IHH87-1@CompuServe.COM>

Gee, an action packed week here on the list. Is it always like this?

Marissa

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 11:40:53 -0700 (PDT)
From: zbobz
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: FS exciting in action
Message-Id: <199608291840.LAA23165@cyprus.it.earthlink.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 06:03 PM 8/28/96 -0700, you wrote:
>Tony, it's becoming obvious that you're going to pull an adolescent
>stunt every chance you get. I'm removing and banning you from this
>list.
>
>Dee-Ann
>
----------
Gosh, that was exciting. Female supremacy in action: Women making wise
decisions to make all our lives better. Women making their world the way
they want it. More power to you.

zbobz

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 11:40:43 -0700 (PDT)
From: zbobz
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Stretching Limits:
Message-Id: <199608291840.LAA23155@cyprus.it.earthlink.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Kalika,

Thank you for sharing your lovely thoughts. Very nicely said ... very
nicely conceived. What you say has the feel of deep personal truth.

> ... in a Femsprem "environment", it is *always* the wishes of the Goddess
that are to >be met... fullfilled.

>IMHO, males need to learn patience ... focus on the wishes of the Goddess,
... to >remain quiet ... to observe and learn ... to accept deference to Her
as a natural >occurance.

>In so doing, he will grow both in his ability to please Her, and also his
>opportunity to experience the joy ... it is, really, a natural thing.

zbobz

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 12:04:36 -0700
From: Jet
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Is it Always Like This?
Message-ID: <3225E9C4.30FA@nwlink.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Marissa--

Sometimes it's very busy and sometimes it is not. It just depends.
I enjoy it when it's busy because so much is being discussed and so
much is going on. I also enjoy it when it's not so busy because then
I can respond to more email from the list in an indepth manner.

I have been on the list for about 4-5 months now (I think--sometimes
it feels longer because I've learned so much here and met so many
great people) and there is rarely a dull moment. You've been lurking
so you kind of know what's happening, but the longer you're on the list,
the more you learn.

Jet
>
> Gee, an action packed week here on the list. Is it always like this?
>
> Marissa

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 13:16:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Deterioration-.Xantippe gets the blaim
Message-Id: <199608292016.NAA01034@catherine.renaissoft.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 1108

xantippe wrote:
>
> Laura>Patricia>Tony>Peter>e.o. generated a chainreaction which is deteriorating this list.Do you all let this happen because we (xantippe) failed (as we did) to introduce ourselves properly and in time? We overhere can not believe that.Are you not cheating yourself by thinking that Xantippe initiated the said chainreaction? Feeling invaded by a * xantippe text* on the screen? It can so easy be deleted..are you faking? might be out of a urge need for attention? Just get rid of your old grudges and don't kick newcomers before they are even aware of their own*maidentrip imperfections*.

You will quickly learn that going into any online forum and simply
starting to post ads is fairly ineffective and tends to upset people.
Please don't now try to start fights here by throwing around
accusations.

Dee-Ann

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 13:19:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Deterioration-.Xantippe gets the blaim
Message-Id: <199608292020.NAA01053@catherine.renaissoft.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 525

David Land wrote:
>
> Well here's another victim statement from old Xantippe. I know where MY
> delete key is.
> I was wondering about that word, Xantippe. Is
> it Greek for drivel?

Let's quit all of the sniping back and forth, shall we?

Dee-Ann

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 15:27:28 -0700 (PDT)
From: feydancer@earthlink.net (Phoenix)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Change of topic
Message-Id: <199608292227.PAA06896@iberia.it.earthlink.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

De-lurking again...

After several weeks of aggravation, my new PC is running smoothly and
connected to the net again. I now know more than I ever wanted to about
Windows '95! Anyway, I thought I'd toss out a few things...

Just finished re-reading Adjit Mookerjee's _Kali, The Feminine Force_. It's
a richly illustrated and well-written book. I think anyone interested in
femsupremacy would find it interesting. (Those who follow Goddess paths may
find it downright inspirational!)

A tidbit from the book... "There is no jewel rarer than woman, no condition
superior to that of a woman. There is not, nor has been, nor will be any
destiny to equal that of a woman..." (from the Saktisangama Tantra)


I also wondered if anyone has read _The Gate to Women's Country_ by Sherri
S. Tepper? (science fiction) The most interesting concept in the book is
gradually uncovered in the story, so I won't relate it here. But I will
describe the predominate social structure. In a post-nuclear-holocost world
a society has been organized in which there are a series of towns
(Marthatown, Peggytown, etc). Each town has a garrison attached to it filled
with (male) warriors. All the women (and men known as "Servitors") live
within the walled towns. The women are well-educated and do all the work of
maintaining the society (farming, fishing, trading, etc.). Warriors, of
course, fight. Tepper is a wonderful author and the story is an entertaining
read which also explores the relationship between the sexes and a possible
ending of patriarchy.


--Lady Phoenix

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 20:03:59 -0500
From: kriv@interlog.com (peter)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Deterioration-.Xantippe gets the blaim
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I suggest people treat this the same way I deal with a mosquito bite. Try
to ignore the discomfort for a couple of days and it will go away.
peter>
>
>
>xantippe wrote:
>>
>> Laura>Patricia>Tony>Peter>e.o. generated a chainreaction which is
>>deteriorating this list.Do you all let this happen because we (xantippe)
>>failed (as we did) to introduce ourselves properly and in time? We
>>overhere can not believe that.Are you not cheating yourself by thinking
>>that Xantippe initiated the said chainreaction? Feeling invaded by a *
>>xantippe text* on the screen? It can so easy be deleted..are you faking?
>>might be out of a urge need for attention? Just get rid of your old
>>grudges and don't kick newcomers before they are even aware of their
>>own*maidentrip imperfections*.


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 20:41:42 -0700
From: Patricia
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: books
Message-ID: <322662F6.6F46@tiac.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

has anyone else read "Woman at the edge of Time." by Mary Daly...it is
fiction...that's more than fiction.
Patricia

the subject "help".

--------------------------------
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femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 188

Today's Topics:
Re: child abuse fantasy?
Re: Domination in the Grief process
Re: child abuse fantasy?
child abuse fantasy?
Re: child abuse fantasy?
Nice change of pace...thanks
Re: child abuse fantasy?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 07:50:28 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chase Vogelsberg
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: child abuse fantasy?
Message-Id: <199608201450.HAA22608@eskimo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Christine & David wrote:
> I bring to your attention a matter which disturbs me greatly.
>
> I recently received a letter which contained what purports to
> be the true story of a Lady named b******. It was apparent that
> this story had been posted to Alt Sex Bondage back in 1994.
>
> Was it a cry for help, and if so what should I do about it?
>
> Is it just fantasy, and if so should I do more than I have done?
>
> The story tells the life of a girl sexually abused from the age
> of three by her legal guardian in Europe. Handed on to others
> to act in service and eventually ending up in apparently joyful
> slavery in America.

Well now.... I've known the person pretty well online for a couple of
years, I know her current owners, again online, have seen them interact,
and have a few very good personal friends who know them in person, an' I
know the particular posting of hers which you refer to. I'm kinda curious
as to how / why she sent it to you, but.... It's not a cry for help,
being as she's -quite- happy with her current situation, and it's not a
fantasy story. It's an explanation of who she is, what she is, so's people
can understand where she's coming from.

> I give you my reply to the sender below.

I give you my response to your reply.

---- response :
> The story, whether fantasy or not, appears to justify child
> abuse, by the apparent happy ending of your life in slavery. If
> it is a true story, you would be doing the world a favour if you
> re-wrote it to remove the 'happy ending'. If it is true you are
> breaking no laws that I know of by circulating it.

If it's true, and she rewrites it so's not to bruise your sensibilities,
then it's no longer true, it's no longer a good explanation of her life.
Perhaps history books and biographies should be rewritten to remove all
reference to things that may disturb people? People don't have a divine
mandate to do the world a favour, especially when and if it means denying
who and what they are.

> If it is a fantasy, I think you should remove all references to
> the period before your induction in France. The child abuse
> sections are most disturbing, and prompted me to consider many
> and various ways of rescuing you from a life which is built upon
> absence of consent.
>
> If it is
> fantasy then you run the risk of criminal action being taken
> against you.

Blood an' bone, -if- it's a fantasy then the author has a right to
express what is, after all, her fantasy. If it disturbs you, then don't
read it. Reading ASB, ASFD, and even some -good- BDSM fiction such as
Pat Califia can give almost anyone glimpses of things that a number of
people are going to find unpleasant, unenjoyable, and even down right
offensive or disturbing. Personally, I feel quite a bit of distaste at
most of the forced feminization, castration, degradation type of femdom
'fiction' out there - but I don't try and tell the other people they
should change their writing so's it isn't noncon fantasy material.

So far as criminal action, if it's fantasy? I'm not sure where
you get the notion that such is any more criminal than anything else on
the internet, under the communications decency act the US was stupid
enough to pass.

> If it is a true story, then it is very sad indeed. It is my
> opinion that you should only continue in a life of slavery, once
> having established that you have the power to choose.
>
> If true I believe you should seek help in establishing a
> genuinely free and independent lifestyle. If you then find you
> wish to consent to periods of experimental slavery, you would be
> freely choosing to do so.

People go round and round on this on ASB, and elsewhere - why should
someone -have- to only do "periods of experimental" submission / slavery,
if they want TPE (Total Power Exchange) or 'real' slavery? The person in
question is very happy in the relationship and lifestyle she has, quite
possibly would -not- be happy if she sought 'help'.

> If fantasy, then you should consider very seriously whether you
> wish to disturb people, and justify the impression so common in
> the media that bdsm is about child abuse and lack of consent. At
> the very least the story should be headed up as fantasy.

So, we should only write BDSM light, no severe pain, no brandings,
nothing that the media and the vanilla population might find shocking
or 'sick'? Just a little bondage, tickling maybe, or spanking, but
no crops, no canes, no strapon harnesses and whatnot? Eh, I don't think
so - that's censorship, and in any case, who's writing BDSM fiction /
fantasy material for the media or vanilla types?

------ End of specific commentary

Despite all that I said on the specifics of what you sent my friend, I
myself was somewhat disturbed by things in her past - but they are her
past, unalterable. If I knew the person who sold her into servitude,
and who'd sexually molested her even before that, I'd be inclined to
display extreme violence -- I'm not at all happy that such a thing hap-
pened. I don't think many of the people she gives her background to
are going to react well to it - proof, in my eyes, that she isn't at all
'justifying' child abuse and whatnot.

The key thing is, she's happy - she has owners who care for her very
much, and are proud of her. If someone were to get the authorities to
intervene, she'd be very much -unhappy-. She doesn't want independence,
she doesn't want freedom -- but neither is she without a sense of herself.
She sticks up for herself, and she only submits to those whom her owners
tell her to. Isn't the life for me, and obviously not for you - but then,
it doesn't need to be.

-- \_awless is : A wolf, wild at heart, with a heart of darkness.
-- Chase Vogelsberg (lawless@netcom.com / lawless@eskimo.com)
--
-- The trouble with hell is that the ambient temperature is above the flash
-- point of alcohol. Which means you can't linger over your drink.
-- Alexis A Gilliland

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 12:06:51 -0400
From: Laura Goodwin
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Domination in the Grief process
Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960820160651.0069d7f8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Jet wrote:
>Please do post any thoughts as they come up. I would be very interested in
>any or all thoughts regarding my original post, as well as comments to yours.

Speaking of grief and how domination can help or be effected by it... my
slave husband and I had an extremely difficult and emotionally painful year,
due to life's slings and arrows: His adorable old father died, and soon
after that Grandpa's wife threw the whole family into a battle over the
will. During the months that followed, Bruce suffered a serious back injury
which required surgery and left him a little disabled, possibly for life.
My 16 year old son got into a big fight with me, leaving me bruised and so
outraged that I had to send him (with a big chunk of my prime heartmeat) to
live with my ex-husband. Our home was burglerized. We reeled from one
disaster to another, barely able to catch a breath between, and it certainly
had it's effect on *my* sexual feelings, as well as his. Due partially to
emotional overload and stress, I let my relationship with my lover Jan to
lapse. It has been an act of pure courage just to act cheerful and keep a
brave face, and my libido went into the toilet.

We had sex last night for the first time in a month, and it was no
three-ring circus. It was a simple coupling of two anxious souls groping
for solace. I haven't *felt* like dominating anybody lately: I feel like
being babied, but instead I have to baby everyone else. But things are
getting better now. Our friends have been wonderfully supportive. I
suppose only time can help with some of it.

In our situation it's not the D/S aspect that is our strength now, but the
simple human love and respect we have for each other. We have faith in
*us*, and are using this time to grow stronger as a team of two hearts
hitched together.
Laura Goodwin


"Who is she who appears like the dawn
Fair as the moon, bright as the sun,
Terrifying as an army with banners?"

(Song of Solomon 6:10)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 04:16:40 +0100
From: "Christine & David Stevenson"
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: child abuse fantasy?
Message-Id: <199608210416.EAA08976@mail.telepac.pt>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

Christine & David replying to femsupremacy@renaissoft.com who
wrote on 20 Aug 96 about Re: child abuse fantasy?

Dear Chase/Lawless,

Thank you for putting my mind somewhat at ease. You have the
advantage over me in knowing the lady and/or her friends.

I was hoping for a reaction such as yours when I made my cry
for help to the list.

I accept a few of the reprimands contained in your response. I
have added some further comments to them, where I think you have
misunderstood or over-reacted.

My mind is now easier in that I can dismiss the idea that the
lady was asking for help to escape from human bondage, even at
this late date.

In some respects I would have preferred this to have been a
fantasy that I could make go away by rebuking and rebuffing it
in the way I did. I recognise that is my problem, and I should
not have lashed out at the victim. I have since apologised for
doing so.

However it must be obvious to all, that it was because of my
uncertainty that I wrote.

sincerely,
David.

>
> Well now.... I've known the person pretty well online for a couple of
> years, I know her current owners, again online, have seen them interact,
> and have a few very good personal friends who know them in person, an' I
> know the particular posting of hers which you refer to. I'm kinda curious
> as to how / why she sent it to you,

In response to a letter I submitted to the Thystles mailing
list mentioning I had read someone else's bio, the Lady offered to
send me her bio. I accepted as it would have seemed impolite to
do otherwise.

> but.... It's not a cry for help,
> being as she's -quite- happy with her current situation, and it's not a
> fantasy story. It's an explanation of who she is, what she is, so's people
> can understand where she's coming from.

Having received these assurances I have written an apology to
the lady for my earlier reply.

>
> I give you my response to your reply.
>
> ---- response :
>
> If it's true, and she rewrites it so's not to bruise your sensibilities,
> then it's no longer true, it's no longer a good explanation of her life.
> Perhaps history books and biographies should be rewritten to remove all
> reference to things that may disturb people?

I was not asking for the removal of the parts that disturbed me.
To the contrary I was asking that the disturbing parts be kept
separate from the joy of human bondage part. The early child abuse
blending into a teenager learning to take eroticised punishments
and admitting they were, to use her word, *fun*, I still find
incredible.

If you take another look at my response you will see that I am
in fact objecting to the rose coloured nature of latter periods
and the ending. I think they detract from what would otherwise
be an horrific story of abuse.

I may be wrong to ask for that separation. But please do not
think that I'm asking for a cleaned up version. I think that
the story of her early life is valuable and puts into
perspective some of the current hysteria over child abuse and
pornography. By this I mean showing that it is not the 'Evil
Internet' that is to blame. In Belgium and throughout Europe
right now there are those in the media giving that impression.

This story took place in the 50's and 60's, before one could
possibly lay the blame on Internet pornographers.

However the post to ASB as I read it does blur the distinction
between right and wrong. It does help people to confuse child
abuse and consensual bdsm. And again I am probably wrong in
wanting a black and white separation. But for me they are
separate.

I realise from the posts to this list, that for others the fact
of earlier abuse may be relevant to their current preferences.
But I believe these to be far from the general rule. I have
certainly read no other post that eroticised the transition from
abused child to consenting adult.

> People don't have a divine
> mandate to do the world a favour, especially when and if it means denying
> who and what they are.

No. And I have no right to ask that of anyone. But what I meant
by doing the world a favour was that it is a story of abuse that
would be better told as abuse. The merging into consensual bdsm is a
tricky area which it might be helpful not to highlight.

>
> > If it is a fantasy, I think you should remove all references to
> > the period before your induction in France. The child abuse
> > sections are most disturbing, and prompted me to consider many
> > and various ways of rescuing you from a life which is built upon
> > absence of consent.
> >
> > If it is
> > fantasy then you run the risk of criminal action being taken
> > against you.
>
> Blood an' bone, -if- it's a fantasy then the author has a right to
> express what is, after all, her fantasy. If it disturbs you, then don't
> read it.

At no stage did I make any objection on the grounds of my being
disturbed. I mention my disturbance as a warning that others
reacting to such disturbance may take rash action which might
not be in her interest. It is possible that my letter was open
to both interpretations.

With regards to others (not me) avoiding disturbance by not
reading it. How would a person know they are disturbed enough
not to read it, until they read it? No need to answer this
remark as it has nothing to do with the issues. But it perhaps
demonstrates that you were firing from the hip. I am sorry if
something I said caused that response.

> Reading ASB, ASFD, and even some -good- BDSM fiction such as
> Pat Califia can give almost anyone glimpses of things that a number of
> people are going to find unpleasant, unenjoyable, and even down right
> offensive or disturbing.

Agreed. But I don't think there is any factual stories of child
abuse presented in an erotic style in such works.

> Personally, I feel quite a bit of distaste at
> most of the forced feminization, castration, degradation type of femdom
> 'fiction' out there - but I don't try and tell the other people they
> should change their writing so's it isn't noncon fantasy material.

Nor do I. In fact I have recently posted in defence of writing
non-con fantasy material, labelled on the cover as fiction.

This is about non-con _fact_ material being posted in a way that
eroticises it. Less easy to for me at least, to defend.

>
> So far as criminal action, if it's fantasy? I'm not sure where
> you get the notion that such is any more criminal than anything else on
> the internet, under the communications decency act the US was stupid
> enough to pass.

Things don't have to be criminal to make them more likely to be
actionable. I've been there. Visited by police for running an
'hotel' that the media reported as Portugal's only SM hotel.
Invited to accompany them to the station to make a statement
regarding whether we were putting on illegal 'shows'.

I suggested risk of criminal action. By that I mean action
being taken by the forces of law and order in a process of
criminal jurisdiction. Not definite criminal offence and
eventual conviction.

Take a look around at the baying wolves in Europe at the moment.
Anything that smacks of child porn runs the risk of criminal
action. (Anything that smacks of sex on the Internet will once
again come under hysterical scrutiny).

>
> > If it is a true story, then it is very sad indeed. It is my
> > opinion that you should only continue in a life of slavery, once
> > having established that you have the power to choose.
> >
> > If true I believe you should seek help in establishing a
> > genuinely free and independent lifestyle. If you then find you
> > wish to consent to periods of experimental slavery, you would be
> > freely choosing to do so.
>
> People go round and round on this on ASB, and elsewhere - why should
> someone -have- to only do "periods of experimental" submission / slavery,
> if they want TPE (Total Power Exchange) or 'real' slavery? The person in
> question is very happy in the relationship and lifestyle she has, quite
> possibly would -not- be happy if she sought 'help'.

I have a right to my beliefs on this one. It is stated as my
opinion in response to a bio she sent me. I think that anyone
coming from a background such as the one this lady is from
should seriously question whether she wishes to continue in
'real slavery'. The story as posted does not suggest such
questioning ever took place. Of course I realise now from your
defence of the people involved, that such questioning may well
have taken place.

>
> > If fantasy, then you should consider very seriously whether you
> > wish to disturb people, and justify the impression so common in
> > the media that bdsm is about child abuse and lack of consent. At
> > the very least the story should be headed up as fantasy.
>
> So, we should only write BDSM light, no severe pain, no brandings,
> nothing that the media and the vanilla population might find shocking
> or 'sick'?

I don't deserve that! Your words, not mine.

I merely suggested that if it is fantasy it would be better to
head it up as such. Were it fantasy, then presenting it as
truth with stories of enforced sex upon a three year old child
would be wrongfully disturbing. Were such a story headed up as

"fantasy, three year old girl used sexually by adults",

I would avoid it.

> Just a little bondage, tickling maybe, or spanking, but
> no crops, no canes, no strapon harnesses and whatnot? Eh, I don't think
> so - that's censorship, and in any case, who's writing BDSM fiction /
> fantasy material for the media or vanilla types?

It is not censorship to head up fantasy material with a
description of what it is. In my opinion non-consensual fantasy
should be described as such whenever there is a likelihood of
doubt.

>
> ------ End of specific commentary
>
> Despite all that I said on the specifics of what you sent my friend, I
> myself was somewhat disturbed by things in her past - but they are her
> past, unalterable. If I knew the person who sold her into servitude,
> and who'd sexually molested her even before that, I'd be inclined to
> display extreme violence -- I'm not at all happy that such a thing hap-
> pened. I don't think many of the people she gives her background to
> are going to react well to it - proof, in my eyes, that she isn't at all
> 'justifying' child abuse and whatnot.
>
> The key thing is, she's happy - she has owners who care for her very
> much, and are proud of her. If someone were to get the authorities to
> intervene, she'd be very much -unhappy-. She doesn't want independence,
> she doesn't want freedom -- but neither is she without a sense of herself.
> She sticks up for herself, and she only submits to those whom her owners
> tell her to. Isn't the life for me, and obviously not for you - but then,
> it doesn't need to be.

But. If that piece gets distributed wildly with the current
climate of FBI net watching, (witness events on aol in recent
times), then her comfortable life may well be disturbed by
someone who does not ask questions first.

I still think it might be wiser to distribute it in some other
form, or in some other media.

sincerely,
David.

http://www.nixnet.com/MsChristine

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 15:08:48 -0500
From: sorceress@CYBEROTI.COM
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: child abuse fantasy?
Message-ID:

FE>Dear b******,

FE>Thank you for the ***, which I noticed is getting on for two
FE>years old, perhaps longer as the date only refers to when posted
FE>to ASB, not when written.

FE>If it is a fantasy, I think you should remove all references to
FE>the period before your induction in France. The child abuse
FE>sections are most disturbing, and prompted me to consider many
FE>and various ways of rescuing you from a life which is built upon
FE>absence of consent.

FE>The story, whether fantasy or not, appears to justify child
FE>abuse, by the apparent happy ending of your life in slavery. If
FE>it is a true story, you would be doing the world a favour if you
FE>re-wrote it to remove the 'happy ending'. If it is true you are
FE>breaking no laws that I know of by circulating it. If it is
FE>fantasy then you run the risk of criminal action being taken
FE>against you.

David, these things do happen, and while they
are reprehensible and unconscionable, the victims
frequently fixate on the event(s) as their sexuality
develops--often quite happily.

FE>If fantasy, then you should consider very seriously whether you
FE>wish to disturb people, and justify the impression so common in
FE>the media that bdsm is about child abuse and lack of consent. At
FE>the very least the story should be headed up as fantasy.

I am vehemently opposed to censorship of any sort.
While I rarely disagree with what you write, this time
I must.


Best regards,
Barbara
CybErotiComm Online

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 23:12:56 -0500
From: Roland Foy
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: child abuse fantasy?
Message-ID: <321BDE48.5D5A@pclink.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I am saddened by this thread. Too deep for me. Not knowing the
players or the history I'm left with a hollow feeling. May the
following remind us of childhood's progeny:

When Apollo Mission Astronaut Neil Armstrong first walked on the moon,
he not only gave his famous "One Small Step for Man, One Giant Leap for
Mankind" statement, but followed it by several remarks - usual com
traffic between him, the other astronauts and Mission Control. Before
he re-entered the lander, he made the enigmatic remark "Good luck, Mr.
Gorsky." Many people at NASA thought it was a casual remark concerning
some rival Soviet Cosmonaut; however, upon checking, there was no Gorsky
in either the Russian nor American space programs.
Over the years, many people have questioned him as to what the "Good
luck, Mr. Gorsky" statement meant. On July 5, in Tampa Bay, FL, while
answering questions following a speech, a reporter brought up the 26
year old question to Armstrong. He finally responded. It seems that
Mr. Gorsky had died and so Armstrong felt he could answer the
question. When he was a kid, Neil was playing baseball with his
brother in the backyard. His brother hit a fly ball which landed in
front of his neighbors' bedroom window. The neighbors were Mr and
Mrs. Gorksy. As he leaned down to pick up the ball, he heard Mrs.
Gorsky shouting at Mr. Gorsky, "Oral sex? Oral sex you want? You'll
get oral sex when the kid next door walks on the moon!"

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 21:39:21 -0700
From: Jet
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Nice change of pace...thanks
Message-ID: <321BE479.7B9E@nwlink.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Roland--

This story was so sweet and funny. Thank you for bringing a bit of joy
to us. There are many bad things in this world, but there are also many
good things. We cannot always focus on the bad or the good, but it's
nice when it's one extreme or the other, to remind us that it is not ALL
this way.

Jet

> When Apollo Mission Astronaut Neil Armstrong first walked on the moon,
> he not only gave his famous "One Small Step for Man, One Giant Leap for
> Mankind" statement, but followed it by several remarks - usual com
> traffic between him, the other astronauts and Mission Control. Before
> he re-entered the lander, he made the enigmatic remark "Good luck, Mr.
> Gorsky." Many people at NASA thought it was a casual remark concerning
> some rival Soviet Cosmonaut; however, upon checking, there was no Gorsky
> in either the Russian nor American space programs.
> Over the years, many people have questioned him as to what the "Good
> luck, Mr. Gorsky" statement meant. On July 5, in Tampa Bay, FL, while
> answering questions following a speech, a reporter brought up the 26
> year old question to Armstrong. He finally responded. It seems that
> Mr. Gorsky had died and so Armstrong felt he could answer the
> question. When he was a kid, Neil was playing baseball with his
> brother in the backyard. His brother hit a fly ball which landed in
> front of his neighbors' bedroom window. The neighbors were Mr and
> Mrs. Gorksy. As he leaned down to pick up the ball, he heard Mrs.
> Gorsky shouting at Mr. Gorsky, "Oral sex? Oral sex you want? You'll
> get oral sex when the kid next door walks on the moon!"


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 06:59:16 -0500
From: kriv@interlog.com (Peter)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: child abuse fantasy?
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I heard a version of this that says Neil Armstrong was misquoted when he
first walked on the moon. He actually said "This is one small step for man,
one giant leap for Sam Fine."

Why, you ask?

About a week before his mission, Armstrong was in a hotel that had thin
walls. He heard a woman and man arguing. He pressed his head to the wall
and heard the woman say: "Sam Fine! The day a man walks on the moon is the
day I give you a blowjob!"
>
Peter>
>
>
>I am saddened by this thread. Too deep for me. Not knowing the
>players or the history I'm left with a hollow feeling. May the
>following remind us of childhood's progeny:
>
>When Apollo Mission Astronaut Neil Armstrong first walked on the moon,
>he not only gave his famous "One Small Step for Man, One Giant Leap for
>Mankind" statement, but followed it by several remarks - usual com
>traffic between him, the other astronauts and Mission Control. Before
>he re-entered the lander, he made the enigmatic remark "Good luck, Mr.
>Gorsky." Many people at NASA thought it was a casual remark concerning
>some rival Soviet Cosmonaut; however, upon checking, there was no Gorsky
>in either the Russian nor American space programs.
>Over the years, many people have questioned him as to what the "Good
>luck, Mr. Gorsky" statement meant. On July 5, in Tampa Bay, FL, while
>answering questions following a speech, a reporter brought up the 26
>year old question to Armstrong. He finally responded. It seems that
>Mr. Gorsky had died and so Armstrong felt he could answer the
>question. When he was a kid, Neil was playing baseball with his
>brother in the backyard. His brother hit a fly ball which landed in
>front of his neighbors' bedroom window. The neighbors were Mr and
>Mrs. Gorksy. As he leaned down to pick up the ball, he heard Mrs.
>Gorsky shouting at Mr. Gorsky, "Oral sex? Oral sex you want? You'll
>get oral sex when the kid next door walks on the moon!"
>


the subject "help".

--------------------------------
End of femsupremacy-digest Digest V96 Issue #188
************************************************

From - Thu Sep 12 09:07:11 1996
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To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
From: Laura Goodwin
Subject: Re: Egalitarian vs Femsupremacy
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At 11:20 PM 9/10/96 -0400, Micah L. Martin wrote:
>On 10 Sep 1996, Jon Woolven wrote:
>
>> P.S. to micah-l-martin
>
>> Please stop accusing other people of misrepresenting your argument whilst
>> blantantly doing so to theirs. It is very irritating.
>
>There's little point in issuing such a complain unless you tell me
>
>a) Where I accused other people of misrepresenting my argument, and
>
>b) Where I blatantly did that very thing with someone else's argument.

There is zero point value in these life-sapping point by point analyses of
"opinions".
We are not arguing mathematical principles here. We are reporting from our
own hearts about what we think and feel, and the combative stance you've
adopted is not conducive to the conversation we were trying to have. Now
cut that shit out. It's starting to look like a disruptive tactic, and we
are wise to such tricks, OK?

Laura Goodwin


"Who is she who appears like the dawn
Fair as the moon, bright as the sun,
Terrifying as an army with banners?"

(Song of Solomon 6:10)

the subject "help".


From - Thu Sep 12 09:07:10 1996
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Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 14:44:50 -0400
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com, femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
From: Laura Goodwin
Subject: Re: Egalitarian vs Femsupremacy
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>yes, men ought to start...all of them..getting down on their hands and
knees and begging the female >principle nature..to forgive them for what
they and there gender have done and to begin to work....to try to >heal,
lick, kiss her wounds and make them all better.....
>Patricia

Absolutely! I know men will be expecting women to clean up their mess for
them as usual, but they are going to have to take on their share of it,
which at first will be most of it. You can see the tide is turning, because
men worldwide, more and more, are requiring each other to show respect to
women and the earth. Women are using their influence to change the rules of
the game and the way it's played, even in areas where they are still
enslaved.

*My Fantasy* What if all the men who are incompetant or evil were replaced
by women who are competant and decent? The guys who are competant and
decent could stay where they are, the women who merit it would be able to
use their talents, and the only people who suffered would be the ones who
deserve to!
Laura Goodwin


"Who is she who appears like the dawn
Fair as the moon, bright as the sun,
Terrifying as an army with banners?"

(Song of Solomon 6:10)

the subject "help".


From - Wed Sep 11 16:54:48 1996
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Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 22:55:33 -0400 (EDT)
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At 10:31 PM 9/10/96 -0500, you wrote:
>-- [ From: New User * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] --
>
>Goodwin's point is the interesting one though. Men have certainly done their
>best to keep women down. And men are still freaky about female athletes,
>females competing with males directly in team sports, females in the
>workplace, etc. etc.

Briefly speaking out loud, some men don't get freaked out by female
athletes. The recent Olympic Games in Atlanta is a case in point. The
women's basketball team was much more exciting and more enjoyable to watch
than the men's basketball team. The men came off as arrogant and
egotistical, while the women carried themselves with grace and an
understated determination. And the women's team drew over 30,000 people to
their games :)

Regards, Paul

the subject "help".


From - Sun Sep 8 17:15:27 1996
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To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
From: kriv@interlog.com (peter)
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: A Wonderful Name?]
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Marissa:
I'm the peter who began this thread and not the one to whom you responded
with your message.
You're right, this has gone on a bit too much and perhaps it's time to
stop. If Patricia prefers to refer to me at tricky, that's fine. If
Starbound wishes to refer to me as peter pan or krivy, that's okay. And
Lady Jet can refer to me any way she wishes.
And you're right that my male ego/libido was stroked. What man wouldn't
like the attention of three women?
My only concern, Marissa, is you. It's unfortunate you don't have the
patience to realize that this would soon end. And more important, you don't
have the sense of humor and understanding to see that this was just
light-hearted banter.
For what it's worth, I've chosen to keep signing my postings as peter.
That's what I've always intended to do. What the other peter does is
entirely up to him. I'm sorry all of this has offended you.
I think it's best we go on to other more important, serious matters, so,
I'll post another query:

Is stroking the male ego/libido allowed in female supremacy?
>
peter>
>
>peter wrote:
>
>>>You are right, Patricia. Men like me should know our place - I'm a
>slut who'll lick the ass of any woman who wishes it!
>
>peter<<
>
>While I believe wholeheartedly in each person's right to expression of ideas, I
>have counted no less than 20 messages on the topic of what to call this person.
>Additionally, his responses are designed to elicit some self-pleasing,
>self-serving FD feedback for himself.
>
>I thought this list was designed to provide a forum where FS could be discussed
>in a serious, thoughtful environment. Instead, comments like the above from
>peter do nothing except stroke the male ego/libido. Let's move on!
>
>Marissa
>
>___________________________________________________________________
>Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
>For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
>mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".


the subject "help".


From - Sun Sep 8 17:15:29 1996
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From: Patricia
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Good grief, if there is no room in femsupremacy for light hearted
banter, silliness or even nonsense.....maybe I should be working for
hyena supremacy or something..at least they appear to laugh.

Patricia

the subject "help".


From - Sun Sep 8 17:15:37 1996
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Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: A Wonderful Name?]
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 11:40:04 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <199609071815.OAA28997@mail.biddeford.com> from "imagery@biddeford.com" at Sep 7, 96 02:15:33 pm
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imagery@biddeford.com wrote:
>
> At 08:47 AM 9/7/96 -0700, you wrote:
> >Good grief, if there is no room in femsupremacy for light hearted
> >banter, silliness or even nonsense.....maybe I should be working for
> >hyena supremacy or something..at least they appear to laugh.
> >
> >Patricia
> >
> I think there is lots of room for banter, silliness, nonsense,humor
> and anything else which makes us laugh and feel light hearted.
> However when the posts become excessive, perhaps some of the banter
> would have been better put into private
> email between the peters and those wishing to rename
> them.

To help put an end to this little "controversy"...I agree with _both_
of the above statements. Yes, we shouldn't take ourselves and life
too seriously. However, when the silliness results in high volume
posting almost totally related to the silliness and practically drowns
out the other discussions, it needs to go to e-mail. Remember, each
post goes to people's e-mail boxes, and there are people who have to
leave this list on occasion because of the number of posts. I don't
mind if it's high volume and on topic. However, high volume and not
really on topic is something I generally have to end up stepping in to
say something about.

My personal opinion on the a**licker thing is that even if he did want
to call himself that, I would call him "al." I prefer not to have to
primarily think of someone in terms of their favorite sexual
activity. Femsupremacy is about much more than that. I wouldn't
forbid someone from using such a name here, but I wouldn't use it.

Dee-Ann
List Admin

the subject "help".


From - Sun Sep 8 17:15:31 1996
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Date: Sat, 07 Sep 1996 13:04:38 -0400
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
From: Laura Goodwin
Subject: Re:Let's move on!
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Marc wrote:

>Three women in a cooperative household with 3 submissive men("husbands")
each could easily >generate a huge cash surplus. This surplus would allow
the household to acquire significant capital >resources. A few such
households working together would generate a staggering amount of wealth.
The >secret is that the natural managers - the women - would control and
administer the wealth. The men >would be managed and trained in a business.
All their natural competitiveness and energy would be >channeled by the
women. They would work in a clean, healthy environment and develop healthy
habits.

One woman alone could easily manage three husbands. Three women united
could probably manage twenty or more. :)

I agree that the nuclear family model is expensive and not as practical in
many ways as group living.

Laura Goodwin


"Who is she who appears like the dawn
Fair as the moon, bright as the sun,
Terrifying as an army with banners?"

(Song of Solomon 6:10)

the subject "help".


From - Sun Sep 8 17:15:40 1996
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> Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 13:51:13 -0500

> Laura wrote:
> >
> >One woman alone could easily manage three husbands. Three women united
> >could probably manage twenty or more. :)
> >
> Please explain?
> peter (kriv)

>
One woman having 3 husbands is much more realistic than
thinking 3 strong-willed, dominant women could live together in
a cooperative household. Have any of the women on the list lived
in a matricentric household, sharing authority with other women?
I would be very interested in the experiences of those who have
lived this way in reality. It sounds so easy; just get the women
to agree on everything, divide up the responsibilities and your
"in".

I rather suspect if women cannot agree on a mail-list, it is doubtful
living day to day under the same roof would work. I wonder why we feel
women banning together to share households would be more beneficial
than a household ruled by a single woman? It is very idealistic, but
not likely to succeed, unless the dominant women are able put aside
their need for autonomy and learn to compromise for the sake of
community. However, freedom and self-rule is where power begins and ends.

How will the FSUtopia be managed? Will a President with House
and Senate be elected? Ho hum...same ol', same ol'!! I feel certain
most here would concede that no two women ever agree on everything, much less
those women who have constitutionally strong minds, hearts and spirits.

Who will be the Boss the Bosses? It is easy to fantasize about women
and cooperation. There will be some who may work well together, but
there will always be a pecking order, even amongst those who are
agressive and dominant. Now, before you rag on the Hag, go out, find
a few women you want to hook up with, then do it! Live this way
for at least a year...then come back and tell us how it really was.
Dont sugar coat it, give us all the lurid, graphic details

Each woman knows what is best for herself and those she rules.
I believe the quixotic quest for this type of FSUtopia is
a bit like going to the outhouse and thinking you are going
to fill up the hole with one poop!

Luridly,
The Night-Hag

the subject "help".


From - Sun Sep 8 17:16:07 1996
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FS-Houshold?
What a great image. :)
But isnt this the *classic* living-form? The women rule at home, the men in
the jungle (out there)?

Dee-Ann wrote:

> Well, it's very easy to leave a mailing list. :) If you're together
> living in a house, and bound by leases or whatnot, you've got more of
> a reason to try to get along. I can't see it working with a 3 women
> being totally equal unless they strictly stuck with a voting system.
> With 3 there couldn't be any ties. However, I know a number of women
> who consider themselves dominant to men and submissive to other
> women. A household with 1 "top" matriarch and 2 women below her but
> in charge of the others I can see working. It's all a matter of
> setting it up properly with the right people, and maintaining it
> properly with rules and communication.
>

Well,this all goes for men too. I am living in such a community since five
years and before this i was living in other commuities with several people
that worked. We are 3 men ,sometimes 5, have a big appartment and it works.
Of course we have our troubles with each other but as long you are willing
to live together it works. I dont see any reason why it should not work
with three women.
The point is just that you should accept and respect each other. As soon as
one person starts to dominate the others there will be a big problem at
least in our community, exept you want to be dominated.
Living in a community makes everything cheaper, the rate, the food,
everything.
And maybe it works with us because no one here has a own family and dont
have sexual contact with each other.So we are not a couple or tripple or
what ever. Everyone earns his own money and so we are able to pay the rate
for a huge appartment that gives everyone of us enough space to live.
I generally do have the impression that there is an increasing number of
two or three people-with-the-same-gender housholds, at least here in
vienna.

> I agree that women need to be able to work together for female
> supremacy to be viable. If women can't work together, how can we
> expect men to work together. However, I see quite a number of
> organizations out there with women working happily and successfully
> together. Once again, it's all about how it's set up, who's involved,
> and how it's maintained.
>

But men are working together! That makes them so powerfull. I dont
understand the myth that men arent able to work together. Our whole
civilication builds upon the working together of men and it were always
groups of men who won a race never one person alone. It is the (only)
secret why men-kind now dominate the whole world.(or think that they do)
And I am very happy that women more and more learn to work together and
build organizations and companies, support groups and communicate. Every
community needs a philosophy or a religion or simply a myth but most of all
communication and interaction.If you want to live alone but are somehow
forced to live in a group you dont like it wont really work.
That goes for the small groups like households and it goes for the huge
communities like companies, nations, societies.
What i want to say is simply that if three or more women want to live
together in one houshold it will work if they are sure that it is what they
want. And if they want some subbies to live with them it will also work if
there are rules and the will to accept these.
But if there are children too, this whole thing is a VERY big houshold, I
would call it a village then.

Bernd

the subject "help".


From - Sun Sep 8 17:15:38 1996
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To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
From: macrog@terraport.net (Marc Boyer)
Subject: Re: FS households/businesses
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>Paul/maidpaula wrote:
>
>Interesting post, Marc. Generating huge monetary returns isn't "easy"
>however, you seem to be making a big leap here. Just the fact that women
>are controlling things is no guarantee of success. Creating a successful
>business takes capital, skillful application of knowledge, marketing skill,
>dedication, and a *lot* of hard work.

I take your point Paul. I don't want to blithely assume some huge business
break through will guarantee financial success to a female centered
co-operative household. We agree, I believe, on the spiritual and personal
value of such households. However, the economic success that I am speaking
of is not necessarily based on all the members being part of the same
business (although I find this very attractive.) The viabibity of such an
FS household is based on what economists call "differential rates of
development."

Let us assume your scenario of men bringing their various talents and skills
(including existing jobs) to the Household economy. The fact is that there
are 2 factors generating surplus here. One is the economics of scale. One
very large house housing 3 woman centered families is cheaper than three
separate houses etc. etc. etc. And two is the authority exercised by the
woman managers to keep down the high consumption, low quality garbage
expenses. There is also the lifestyle discipline imposed by women that
reduces health costs and improving productivity.

If we simply assume that the FS selection procedure produces an average
income earner (I suspect it would do much better than that) then
differential rates of development will mean that (on average) the FS
Household will get progressively more prosperous than the standard household.

If some of this surplus gets plowed back into successful business ventures
under direction of good women managers (and the latest results from
investment agencies around the world show that women, on average, are
better risk managers) then this increasing prosperity could turn into
ownership of wealth generating business enterprises.

Now this should be true for any group using this co-operative technique.
However, we seem to have lost our ability to enter into this type of
co-operative venture. This has made us incredibly vulnerable to corporate
voodoo economics. Rugged economic individualism is a fairy tale foisted on
us by corporations that themselves are text book cases of the use of
co-operation to ride differential rates of development.

I think that we have simply lost faith. I do not think that it is an
accident that most of the economically successful non-mainstream groups such
as Mennonites, Jews, Jains, Quakers etc have defined themselves by religion.

It is here that the power of the Goddess and the force behind FS principles
becomes so very important. All visions of better social organization have
utopian elements. However, we know that the people who make them work are
not destroyed by the discrepancy between the ideal and the practice.

The operative word here is "Better." FS households would be better, happier
and more satisfying than most existing arrangements. And this includes more
prosperous. There is a thirst in the land for a better way to live than
being caught in the tarantula dance of neo-conservative corporate economics.

I have now made 2 extensive talk-talk postings in 2 days and I shall shut up
and listen to the rain outside my window and the whisper of wind in the
trees. Did I really stick my kneck out like this...?
>
>___________________________________________________________________
>Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
>For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
>mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".
>
>

the subject "help".


From - Sun Sep 8 19:55:37 1996
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Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 11:52:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Micah L. Martin"
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Types of submission
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On Wed, 4 Sep 1996, Coyote Sings wrote:

> I certainly have my voice and vote, but either a) I can be outvoted or b)
> it is my natural inclination to yield on many isssues (but sometimes only
> after heated debate, and if men are involved, I never yield- almost to the
> point of making me out a liar on everything else I say here).

This seems to be a common pattern among male subs--the tendency to submit
to women need not be conjoined with any tendency to submit to men, and in
fact the reverse inclination seems to be pretty common.

I have my own peculiarities in this game. I probably don't come across as
very submissive at all on this list, because i'm not when it comes to
ideas or arguments. To my mind submitting to a bad argument is like
submitting to a flawed mathematical proof--an absurdity, and one which
does no service to anyone, and in particular does not serve the one to
whom you are submitting. I would say it is a part of the duty of a sub to
reason as clearly as they may, and give their opinion with absolute
honesty when asked for it; of course this does not mean always being
argumentative about things!

Be that as it may, in "real life" i am quite submissive, and that
includes towards other males.

the subject "help".


From - Wed Sep 11 16:52:31 1996
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From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
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Subject: Re: Types of submission
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 03:43:59 -0700 (PDT)
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>
> On Wed, 4 Sep 1996, Coyote Sings wrote:
>
> > I certainly have my voice and vote, but either a) I can be outvoted or b)
> > it is my natural inclination to yield on many isssues (but sometimes only
> > after heated debate, and if men are involved, I never yield- almost to the
> > point of making me out a liar on everything else I say here).
>
Micah replied:

> This seems to be a common pattern among male subs--the tendency to submit
> to women need not be conjoined with any tendency to submit to men, and in
> fact the reverse inclination seems to be pretty common.
>
> I have my own peculiarities in this game. I probably don't come across as
> very submissive at all on this list, because i'm not when it comes to
> ideas or arguments.

> Be that as it may, in "real life" i am quite submissive, and that
> includes towards other males.

As I suggested, I am probably less than credible in the 'lifestyle'
sense because of this, which is one reason I avoid the formal 'scene.'
Picky, huh? But it works this way: long experience has taught me to
trust Women more than men most of the time. In the past when a Woman
has sought to have me 'submit' (or even relate) to another male,
Her proximate authority over me vanished and I simply shut down while
my processors labor to resolve what to me is a patent surd.

Or to look at it another way, my struggle is to honor the Feminine
in myself and in life generally. Males, despite some -less than
in most mens' lives- friendships, simply are not on my radar, and
I have contrived -at some cost- to eliminate males from all proximate
power relationships anywhere in my life.

All of this aversion to males intensified in and after the year
spent as the principal caregiver to my brother while he died of AIDS.
It did not in any way ennoble or beatify me -especially given my
brother's lifelong promiscuity and vocal disdain for safe sex (or for
responsibility of any kind)- and left me with a visceral aversion
to male sexuality of any kind, however expressed. So, OK, for a year
I submitted, and was nice and nurturing and not judgemental and
cleaned up his literally lethal shit. And haven't felt clean since,
nor so much as shaken hands with a man without cringing. No more.

Sorry if I'm raining on anyone's parade- that's not my intent- but
there it is, and I for one won't pursue it here.

Peace
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it count.
The rest is hidden.

the subject "help".


From - Sun Sep 8 19:55:46 1996
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Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 12:59:05 -0400
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
From: Laura Goodwin
Subject: Sex & Housework (Re: FS Households...FSUtopia??)
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Night-Hag wrote:

>I rather suspect if women cannot agree on a mail-list, it is doubtful
>living day to day under the same roof would work. I wonder why we feel
>women banning together to share households would be more beneficial
>than a household ruled by a single woman? It is very idealistic, but
>not likely to succeed, unless the dominant women are able put aside
>their need for autonomy and learn to compromise for the sake of
>community.

There a lot of truth to this. Most of the women I know, "dominant" or not,
are very jealous of their household queendoms. I suspect it may have a lot
to do with the way patriarchal society has granted us only the tiny domestic
sphere as our undisputed territory. As little as we've got, as much as we
have to fight for more, the _one place_ that women do not want to struggle
for dominance is in their own damn households! Our power to decide
decorating, menu, and child care matters goes mostly unquestioned, until
another woman gets involved...

I once lived with a Lesbian lover, and dominance was settled from the
beginning, so my taste prevailed until the relationship began to sour. I
knew the honeymoon was over when she moved the furniture around in the
living room without asking me first! ;)

Other lesbian couples seem to make such decisions by either assigning one
partner the domestic management, or by arriving at an endless series of
diplomatic compromises. I have seen that unless there is a clear
understanding to take turns with household tasks, that one partner tends to
take over eventually.

I envision a workable scenario, where one woman is designated the household
manager, and she delegates chores. Another way is to get the women of the
house together for meetings where household management is accomplished by
committee, perhaps with a rotating supervisor's position.

Speaking of housework and same-sex couples, male couples and multiple
households of gay men tend to solve these difficulties easier than hetero
male roommates do. The pattern with het males seems to be to let everything
go to hell, unless they have women coming over, which inspires a frenzy of
emergency cleaning procedures. :) Single het males living alone don't mind
cleaning up after themselves, but give 'em a roommate and it's a contest to
see who notices the dust last!

Not that there aren't any slob women, mind you! I have known lots of women
who were lovely people that could visit me anytime, but I wouldn't go to
their house without a moon-suit! Still, is considered "unfeminine" to be
untidy, eh, what? And being a slob, even filthy, is tolerated more easily
in males...eh, what?

I can dig a woman who is domestically "casual", though. Why should women
expend so much precious energy and creativity on drudge-work? Home should
be a haven, not a sweat-shop!

Numbers-wise, guys are probably as likely as gals to be fastidious, and have
been known to carry it to absurd degrees. I have one bachelor friend who is
constantly cleaning, and when he couldn't get a spot to come out of his
kitchen floor, *he replaced the flooring*. Gimmee some slaves like that
guy! If the women wake up and breakfast is cooked, if they sit at the
'puter to work and the coffee is right there, if the house always smells of
fresh furniture polish, if the seat is always down and the curtains are
always dust-free, I don't think you'd have too many struggles. :)

...Or maybe you would, but at least it would be about something new.


Laura Goodwin


"Who is she who appears like the dawn
Fair as the moon, bright as the sun,
Terrifying as an army with banners?"

(Song of Solomon 6:10)

the subject "help".


From - Wed Sep 11 16:52:15 1996
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From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
Message-Id: <199609090459.VAA00397@catherine.renaissoft.com>
Subject: Re: Sex & Housework (Re: FS Households...FSUtopia??)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 21:59:39 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960908165905.006a0aa0@popd.ix.netcom.com> from "Laura Goodwin" at Sep 8, 96 12:59:05 pm
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Laura Goodwin wrote:
>
> There a lot of truth to this. Most of the women I know, "dominant" or not,
> are very jealous of their household queendoms. I suspect it may have a lot
> to do with the way patriarchal society has granted us only the tiny domestic
> sphere as our undisputed territory. As little as we've got, as much as we
> have to fight for more, the _one place_ that women do not want to struggle
> for dominance is in their own damn households! Our power to decide
> decorating, menu, and child care matters goes mostly unquestioned, until
> another woman gets involved...

I think it could work with the right combination of people. A neat
freak is going to want to be in charge of making sure the house is
clean to her satisfaction. Some with a flair for decorating is going
to want to/enjoy being in charge of making sure the house is arranged
perfectly. A woman with a gourmet palate will want to be sure that
the food meets her tastes. As long as you combine folks who's life's
passion doesn't collide direction with someone else's life's passion
you can probably get along just fine. Just make sure that the neat
freak's kitchen cleaners understand not to wash out the gourmet's cast
iron pots with soap. :) I do think it would take the right kind of
personalities to be able to do this, though. Someone who wants to be
in total control of everything would likely be unhappy in this kind of
arrangement.

> I once lived with a Lesbian lover, and dominance was settled from the
> beginning, so my taste prevailed until the relationship began to sour. I
> knew the honeymoon was over when she moved the furniture around in the
> living room without asking me first! ;)

Hehe. Well, I find I can get kind of laid back. I think I would
function well as being in charge of one facet of a household, as long
as my needs/tastes were at least somewhat considered in the bigger
picture. However, I wouldn't want it to be my sole job in life!
Certainly, the house "matriarchs" wouldn't be bound to only work in
the house. That would be just their home responsibilities. Just as
carrying out their tasks would be the home responsibilities of those
who served them. Just some thoughts sparked mostly from other posts
on the subject.

[some deleted]

> I envision a workable scenario, where one woman is designated the household
> manager, and she delegates chores. Another way is to get the women of the
> house together for meetings where household management is accomplished by
> committee, perhaps with a rotating supervisor's position.

That could work. Especially if no one in the group "loved" doing
household management duty. Then, everyone would know what a pain it
was, and everyone would respect the work that goes into it and the
cooperation necessary to make it work.

> Speaking of housework and same-sex couples, male couples and multiple
> households of gay men tend to solve these difficulties easier than hetero
> male roommates do. The pattern with het males seems to be to let everything
> go to hell, unless they have women coming over, which inspires a frenzy of
> emergency cleaning procedures. :) Single het males living alone don't mind
> cleaning up after themselves, but give 'em a roommate and it's a contest to
> see who notices the dust last!

I had a boyfriend once who lived with 4 other men. He's actually a
neat freak, but after a while he couldn't stand doing the work of 5
people. So, he stopped and just basically kept his room clean and
washed his own dishes. I remember going to help out with the cleaning
when they moved out. Ack! I think part of this problem is that het
men still have that monkey on their back of "a man doesn't do
housecleaning." It's easy to overcome when you live alone, no one
sees you doing it. :)

> Not that there aren't any slob women, mind you! I have known lots of women
> who were lovely people that could visit me anytime, but I wouldn't go to
> their house without a moon-suit! Still, is considered "unfeminine" to be
> untidy, eh, what? And being a slob, even filthy, is tolerated more easily
> in males...eh, what?

Hehe. My grandmother was a neat freak. My aunt is a neat freak. My
mother is tidy, but considered the slob of the family. I kind of take
more after my mom. Lately, though, I seem to go in and out of
cleaning mode. Possibly because I'm having to cut back time on my
computer (which I work at as well as goof around on) due to various
reasons, and I find myself looking around my house going, "You know, I
think it's time to go rearrange those book so they're on those shelves
in alphebetical order, by subject."

> I can dig a woman who is domestically "casual", though. Why should women
> expend so much precious energy and creativity on drudge-work? Home should
> be a haven, not a sweat-shop!

My grandmother-in-law cleans every day. Vacuums every day. Dusts
every day. Does laundry every day. She lives in a postage stamp of
an apartment. I suspect it's a combination of coming from a
generation that was expected to keep a perfect house, and being
retired. Though, the woman has far more of a social life than I do!
I think some folks just can't stand to see their place not perfectly
clean. Gives them a kind of sense of peace.

Dee-Ann
who seems recently to be inspired to make long, rambling posts :)

the subject "help".


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From: kriv@interlog.com (peter)
Subject: Re: good and bad will
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This is just an excellent response by fiona and robert forsythe.

I feel FS has nothing to do with religion, economics etc. It has to do with
a relationship between a man and a woman. A very intricate relationship, we
all agree. And it all comes down to one thing: sex.

It brings something up that I have been wondering about for a long time. No
doubt it has been discussed before, but maybe we could take another shot at
it.

One question comes to mind. Well, actually two questions because I fear I
might get severely flamed if I ask only the first question. They are:

Who is in control here? Is a dominant woman so much in need of her
submissive man that she will do anything to keep him? Will she give in to
his sexual desires and quirks so that he will be happy and will remain with
her? Is she then relegating herself to the role of a whore?

Or:

Who is in control here? Is a dominant woman so attuned to her power and
sexuality and is a man such a crude sexual creature that she can use this
sexuality to get him to do whatever she wishes?
>
peter (kriv)>
>
>
fiona and robert forsythe wrote:>
>
>>One of our big questions in subscribing to fs was to try to work out
>whose side is this all on. Between the two of us we were quite clear our
>own private fs was a force for the good of our relationship. But what
>might it mean in a broader context? To the old order of Christians it
>would seem clear all fs was a negative force upsetting the divine male
>dominated order. Well we do not sign up to that anyway and would rather
>have a Godless world than one which said male domination is divine, the
>empirical evidence for the good a male dominated world achieved is not
>great.
>
>Having now been on the list a while (and realising that it is
>practically an open access list), we think we can distinguish two
>trends. There is an fs which believes male submission would fulfill the
>male, make a better world and relieve threat to the female. It maybe is
>a naive hope and it may founder perhaps because the human person shares
>more between the sexes than there are differences? Are females exempt
>the all power corrupts syndrome? Nonetheless it is a hope that seems to
>us full of goodwill, it wants the best for all.
>
>And because we personally believe that legislating folk into narrow
>sexual practices ain'nt done much good, we can also see fd working for
>some in this context. For a man to learn to put his needs second, to
>even accept punishment, to works on the needs of his other, when so
>often in the past there was not partnership seems like a good. And if to
>be blunt you use all the toys from the catalogue, enjoy fetish fashion,
>even cry out for a whipping, if that is what consensual adult partners
>do, it is about time the world rose above tabloid headlines. That is the
>fs/fd of goodwill and we have been cheered to think that we have seen
>much of it on this list.
>
>There is another fs which seems to crop up in the world, on the net in
>some areas and on the list at times. Its members can be both m/f. If m
>it seems to manifest itself in looking for an fd which will provide a
>sexual thrill and still allow the m to be a m the rest of the time,
>making cheap comments, defining the image of women to suit his own
>fantasies and generally the sort of yobbish behaviour men seem brilliant
>about when left untrained. There also seems to be some females whose fs
>is also similiarly grabbing, their domination of men seems to have no
>more agenda than that of exercising power for its own sake. Power is not
>evil, power exercised for the good is a superb force and women (and men)
>who seek to exercise power for goodwill deserve to enjoy that, but
>power exercised for sheer power is corrupting. Historically it corrupted
>the men who made it their own for the sake of male dominance, it will do
>the same for women and any woman who wants to corrupt a man by making
>him a slave of her badwill will at the last be a very unhappy person.
>
>You will see we have tried to avoid bringing any God/Devil too much into
>this little piece. We cannot presume to tell anyone whether either of
>these two parties actually exist and we would prefer to have the G
>without the D, Nonetheless the force of human power in the belief of
>each is tremendous, and for what it is worth we will throw down our
>warning: add fs to any belief in a cosmic force of badwill and the
>person concerned will create an energy capable of harming themselves and
>those around them very greatly. It is an energy which we would hope
>those who see fs in other lights would assertively say "no way", one
>compelling reason being that if fs is ever to become a really forceful
>lifestyle it will have to overcome an historical male dominated trend
>and press that would be delighted to portray the whole thing as the work
>of the devil - to which any fs/fd who allies themselves thereto feeds an
>awful amount of grist into the mill.
>
>We hope that this will remain Dee-Ann's list because we have built up
>trust in her goodwill.
>--
>fiona and robert forsythe
>


the subject "help".


From - Wed Sep 11 12:26:32 1996
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From: leather@zephyr.net (leather)
Subject: Re: good and bad will
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kriv wrote:

>I feel FS has nothing to do with religion, economics etc.

Kind of like an ignition having nothing to with the car?

>It has to do with
>a relationship between a man and a woman. A very intricate relationship, we
>all agree. And it all comes down to one thing: sex.

I disagree. I feel FS is an all-encompassing frame of mind. If a female
restricts Her supremacy to the bedroom, isn't that merely a "role" in a
fantasy game? This is not My conception of Female Supremacy!!!

It is also *not* limited to the relationship between a man and a Woman! It
has to do with empowerment of all females! It has to do with *not* being
controlled by men (or women) to the point where She loses Her self and
sacrifices Her power!

Boiling it all down to one thing: sex, is limiting your potential to give
of yourself in order to create a mutually pleasant environment! I keep
thinking back on previous postings to this list that related the gender
differences (male manipulation of the female to get what he wants: sex...
to the point of "pushing" and the analogy of women being content in a field
of flowers) and Patricia's disturbing... but true... stats on Domestic
Violence.

When a female dabbles with FS, she is setting Herself up to change Her
whole life and thinking for the better! It may start in the bedroom but
will no doubt seep into every corner of Her mind and every aspect of Her
life! MORE power to HER! Of course, I've considered the good/bad will
posting (which was very good) and assumed it is for the good.

>Who is in control here? Is a dominant woman so much in need of her
>submissive man that she will do anything to keep him?

Not as much as My submissive (and actually all of society) is in need of
Me. If I can bring about one ort of change in the way "people" treat women
or the way women allow themselves to be treated... then I am needed (and I
strive to accomplish this daily).

>Will she give in to his sexual desires and quirks so that he will be happy
>and >will remain with her?

I would never deliberately "give in" to anything for the sole purpose of
his happiness but I like to think that I have enough of an open mind to try
those suggestions that genuinely arouse *My* interest! (You must have this
list confused with aol or CoDA!?!) I'm not saying that men are disposable
but if his happiness is the catalyst without thought or pursuit of Her
own... go now and betray yourself no more!

>Is she then relegating herself to the role of a whore?


Most definately... be careful here. "Female Supremacy" is the name of the
list you are treading and I haven't encountered any female participants who
fit your previous or following descriptions.

>Or:

>Who is in control here? Is a dominant woman so attuned to her power and
>sexuality and is a man such a crude sexual creature that she can use this
>sexuality to get him to do whatever she wishes?

Peter... I sense a desperate need for you to disprove your past experiences
and male reality. Unfortunately, I'm not the one to do it. I am not
eloquent enough or invested, in you, enough to enlighten your perceptions!
Please... close your eyes and try to look at the world through the crack in
your reality that got you here!... here's a hug ((((*)))) to ease your
confusion and anger that you may be wrong about FS theory/motivation!

If you want to learn more, sit down, open your mind, and just learn it!

Emerging Women's Reality in a White Male Society,
Leather



><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><<br />
leather@zephyr.net Leather Me Adult Erotic Leather Toys
\ /
http://www.leatherme.com P.O. Box 86689 \ O /
\/Y\/
http://www.zephyr.net/leather/ Portland, OR )\
_____/__\______
toll free: 1-888-233-2055 97286-0689

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><<br />

the subject "help".


From - Wed Sep 11 16:52:09 1996
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From: kriv@interlog.com (peter)
Subject: Re: good and bad will
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Leather:
An extremely well-thought response. However, I disagree with your final
paragraphs.
I apologize for not saying that my original post was not my idea of an FS
relationship.
I was just bringing forth what I perceive is society's view of such a
relationship. And, while I believe what you say is the situation with all
women in this forum, I believe they are by far the vast minority.
Don't shoot, me, I'm only the messenger.
peter (kriv)>
>
>kriv wrote:
>
>>I feel FS has nothing to do with religion, economics etc.
>
>Kind of like an ignition having nothing to with the car?
>
>>It has to do with
>>a relationship between a man and a woman. A very intricate relationship, we
>>all agree. And it all comes down to one thing: sex.
>
>I disagree. I feel FS is an all-encompassing frame of mind. If a female
>restricts Her supremacy to the bedroom, isn't that merely a "role" in a
>fantasy game? This is not My conception of Female Supremacy!!!
>
>It is also *not* limited to the relationship between a man and a Woman! It
>has to do with empowerment of all females! It has to do with *not* being
>controlled by men (or women) to the point where She loses Her self and
>sacrifices Her power!
>
>Boiling it all down to one thing: sex, is limiting your potential to give
>of yourself in order to create a mutually pleasant environment! I keep
>thinking back on previous postings to this list that related the gender
>differences (male manipulation of the female to get what he wants: sex...
>to the point of "pushing" and the analogy of women being content in a field
>of flowers) and Patricia's disturbing... but true... stats on Domestic
>Violence.
>
>When a female dabbles with FS, she is setting Herself up to change Her
>whole life and thinking for the better! It may start in the bedroom but
>will no doubt seep into every corner of Her mind and every aspect of Her
>life! MORE power to HER! Of course, I've considered the good/bad will
>posting (which was very good) and assumed it is for the good.
>
>>Who is in control here? Is a dominant woman so much in need of her
>>submissive man that she will do anything to keep him?
>
>Not as much as My submissive (and actually all of society) is in need of
>Me. If I can bring about one ort of change in the way "people" treat women
>or the way women allow themselves to be treated... then I am needed (and I
>strive to accomplish this daily).
>
>>Will she give in to his sexual desires and quirks so that he will be happy
>>and >will remain with her?
>
>I would never deliberately "give in" to anything for the sole purpose of
>his happiness but I like to think that I have enough of an open mind to try
>those suggestions that genuinely arouse *My* interest! (You must have this
>list confused with aol or CoDA!?!) I'm not saying that men are disposable
>but if his happiness is the catalyst without thought or pursuit of Her
>own... go now and betray yourself no more!
>
>>Is she then relegating herself to the role of a whore?
>
>
>Most definately... be careful here. "Female Supremacy" is the name of the
>list you are treading and I haven't encountered any female participants who
>fit your previous or following descriptions.
>
>>Or:
>
>>Who is in control here? Is a dominant woman so attuned to her power and
>>sexuality and is a man such a crude sexual creature that she can use this
>>sexuality to get him to do whatever she wishes?
>
>Peter... I sense a desperate need for you to disprove your past experiences
>and male reality. Unfortunately, I'm not the one to do it. I am not
>eloquent enough or invested, in you, enough to enlighten your perceptions!
>Please... close your eyes and try to look at the world through the crack in
>your reality that got you here!... here's a hug ((((*)))) to ease your
>confusion and anger that you may be wrong about FS theory/motivation!
>
>If you want to learn more, sit down, open your mind, and just learn it!
>
>Emerging Women's Reality in a White Male Society,
>Leather
>
>
>
>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><<br />>
>leather@zephyr.net Leather Me Adult Erotic Leather Toys
> \ /
>http://www.leatherme.com P.O. Box 86689 \ O /
> \/Y\/
>http://www.zephyr.net/leather/ Portland, OR )\
> _____/__\______
>toll free: 1-888-233-2055 97286-0689
>
>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><<br />>
>
>___________________________________________________________________
>Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
>For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
>mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".


the subject "help".


From - Wed Sep 11 16:52:06 1996
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From: Jonnan West
Message-Id: <199609082310.SAA25803@indy2.indy.net>
Subject: Egalitarian vs Femsupremacy
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 18:10:26 -0500 (EST)
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First of all, please allow me to apologize in advance for any
offense I might give, or rehashing what may be old hat for this mailing
list. I will confess to having joined this list out of my curious nature,
not due to any intrinsic belief in the 'superiority' of either gender
over the other, and may be operating from different basic assumptions
than others on this list. If this is so, and I phrase someting in a
offensive or impolite manner, I apologize.
(And now onto my offensive and impolite commentary - )
I've read this list for all of a few days now, and although the
commentary is interesting, it looks (to me) as if the primary goal is the
(valid) recognition of the fact that there is no intrinsic weakness of
the female that should result in a societal judgment of women being
somehow 'incapable' or unable to take a place alongside (Or, judging from
the listname, above - ) men in government, business, et al.
I agree with this, as far as it goes. What I do not understand is
why the desire (or justification) for a 'gynosupremist' society, as
oppposed to an egalitarian one in which -neither- gender is judged solely
on the basis of it's gender.
Not (as far as I can tell from my admittedly short period of
receiving mail) revenge. Those on this list do not appear to be so
unbalanced as to believe that revenge is an appropriate motivation for
restructering a society.
Not (In my limited experience) any intrinsic superiority of the
female mind, intelligence, empathy, or conscience, over the male mind.
While I might (or might not) concede that the average female might have
more capacity for these positive attributes than the average male, the
overlap is so high that, if I was to base a society on such things, I
would judge individuals by -their- capacities for these attributes, not
their gender.
By the same token, the negative things in those who fight to keep
power are not somehow absent from the female mind. Greed, hunger for
power for it's own sake, intellectual (and other) dishonesty, disrespect
for the feelings of others, bigotry, et al, are not things somehow left
to men to employ by ourselves. There would appear (Unfortunately) to be
plenty of negatives to share between the genders.
The only other possible explanation that -I- can imagine would be
some belief that the worldviews of the genders are -so- inherently
incompatible somehow, that it isn't possible for an egalitarian society
to form, that only one or the other gender can be in power at a time.
While sometimes attractive (Usually when I'm trying talk to an attractive
female - ), this theory doesn't hold up particularly well to
inspection. Childbearing is the one primary physical difference between
men and women, and the fact is that both parents do love the child. If we
were of some species where the males impregnated the females only when
they were in heat, then left, never to see the females or young again, I
could believe that this single difference would be enough to keep the
worldviews that far apart. However that -isn't- the case, men (Most Men)
do choose to mate with women they love, and -do- love their children.
Their choices for the future -are- based on what they believe is best for
their wife and child. While the worldview may be different (I'm sure it
is) it's not -that- different.
So why would one wish to assume the position of superiority over
those who are best regarded as equals? Or what am I missing that -does-
establish the female gender as intrinsically superior?
Jonnan West

the subject "help".


From - Wed Sep 11 16:54:47 1996
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To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com, femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
From: mike
Subject: Re: the ultimate taboo
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Hello Billy

Long time no hear, hope all is well with you. i understand your post, and
understand where your coming from, but yet not going by societal reasons,
i must disagree with you on this. i myself have fantasized the same as
yourself and also have dreamed of being the complete toilet to the Goddess i
am blessed to someday serve. but yet having a discussion with other Dominas
in the past about this one very subject, i do understand the reason why the
majority of Dominas out there do not use their slaves in this manner. One
Domina that i have known for many years works within the medical
proffession, through many studies, it is a known fact that brown showers
or scat has many unhealthy bacteria within it, that causes many diseases
such as hepatitis and more, but Golden Showers are much different, where a
golden shower has many proteins and is not a dangerous form of worship.

i guess the point i am trying to get across is that as a slave myself, i
know that the slaves health is very important, because it is a slaves
purpose in life to serve their Goddess and Owner to the fullest capibilty
that they can and beyond. if they are plaqued by disease due to such
activities, the slave would not be able to serve in that manner, which
means to me that the purpose of my existance is not worth anything. I feel
when a Domina takes ownership of a slave, the slaves purpose is to serve
150%, and that maintaining good health is important so that the priorities
of the Domina can be satisfied. You know me from the short time that we had
spent together this year as friends, on where i am coming from.

your brother slave
slave sal


the subject "help".


From - Wed Sep 11 16:53:46 1996
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Subject: Masochism, Submission, Sacrifice (Was Catholics)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 10:06:34 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Chase Vogelsberg"
In-Reply-To: <199609090820.BAA21370@netcom11.netcom.com> from "Coyote Sings" at Sep 9, 96 01:20:26 am
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Coyote Sings wrote:
> I'm not convinced that Jesus wanted to die the way he did at all,
> nor that until the last 24 hours or so of his life he even
> understood the full meaning of his impending death. He was apparently
> willing to risk his life for the love he felt, but I can't equate that
> with masochism.
>
> Note that I have characterized him as submissive. Submission and
> masochism are not in my view the same thing at all: again, masochism
> is transactional and at base selfish, submission is an attempt a least
> at selfless behavior, i.e. at transcendence, and in the case of Jesus
> seems to have an act of real power.

Seems to me you've three concepts here, at least, none of which are the
same as the other two. Submission an' masochism most certainly aren't one
another, this is true. I have to take exception to the statement that
masochism is necessarily selfish/transactional, but then again, I don't
agree that the crucifixtion was an act of submission. The third concept,
that of self sacrifice, should probably be viewed as an independent prin-
ciple - too many acts of self sacrifice have come from non-submissive
types.

A mother who dies saving her child, a soldier who throws himself on a hand
grenade, a martyr dying alone and in pain upon a cross - I don't think a
one of them gave their lives in acts of submissiveness, any more than a
woman risking herself to pull someone from an overturned car is submitting
to the person trapped inside. Call it a momentary act of courage, call it
a belief that some things are worth at least risking one's life for, call
it pragmaticism, if you will - the soldier might sacrifice himself as much
from a knowledge that they'd -all- die as anything else. None of them
necessarily wanted to die, none of them were necessarily happy or content
with their possible choices of actions, but they still choose what most
would call the 'right' action.

Whereas submission, well, that's more a turning over of one's will to
another, presumably because some content is found in doing so. Even the
submissive who lives to please her or his Other presumably finds happiness
in that other's pleasure, or in the service itself. I don't think I'd call
it greedy or selfish, but.... It's not generally a matter of selflessness
either - more a matter of someone else's desires being at least nearly as
important as one's own. My view, anyways.

An' then masochism, bein' transactional and at base selfish? Somewhat
harder to disagree here, but well, I'm on a roll. ;) I guess it is, in
it's the pain is something desired, for one reason or another. But is it
any more selfish than the desire for companionship, for affection, or to
avoid pain? Some people inflict pain on themselves, because for them it's
enjoyable. Guess they could be more generous an' let a sadist enjoy the
pain as well, but what if they're alone? Finally, what about the masochist
who needs the pain in order to function? The parent who flagellates
hirself when alone, so that they can continue to get by, who needs the
pain in order to cope and to continue to be a good provider or mate? By
some standards they're perhaps disturbed, but greedy? If there's a tran-
actional basis, well, aren't they the ones paying the price?

> Uhm, are we on topic?

Heh. Well, I'm probably not.... ;->

-- \_awless is : A wolf, wild at heart, with a heart of darkness.
-- Chase Vogelsberg (lawless@netcom.com / lawless@eskimo.com)
--
-- The trouble with hell is that the ambient temperature is above the flash
-- point of alcohol. Which means you can't linger over your drink.
-- Alexis A Gilliland

the subject "help".


From - Fri Sep 13 12:56:00 1996
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To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
From: leather@zephyr.net (leather)
Subject: Re: God/Goddess Worship
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>Jet wrote-
>
>Thank you for the beautiful and haunting poem (to Patricia)...it is one of
>my >favorites as well.

I have never heard that one before and it moved me so much, I printed it
out and will share it at my Womens Cirle tonight. (We meet every month on
the New Moon.)

>Here is a class example of a woman who was squashed by
>patriarchy... I can understand and this is why I subscribe to this list
>and I am trying to raise my daughter with the high ideals I see here.
>I do not want her to have to struggle as we do and hope that by the time
>she is an adult, it will be more equal or at the very least much more
>supportive of women. If not, perhaps she will be another of the catalysts.

I have two teenage sons. Teaching them the concepts of FS has not been
easy. Society teaches them something different (men have "the" power)... it
is a struggle for them to choose not to buy into it.

As a girl, I would have chosen FS was an option instead of resign to
females finding a man and cleaving (in submission) to him. Ack!!! Thank
Goddess I grew up and discovered My own truths! I'd hate to have died early
and ignorant... never having known the pleasure of My "own" power!

Leather

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leather@zephyr.net Leather Me Adult Erotic Leather Toys
\ /
http://www.leatherme.com P.O. Box 86689 \ O /
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><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><<br />

the subject "help".


From - Thu Sep 12 16:31:54 1996
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From: Jonnan West
Message-Id: <199609120742.CAA20612@indy1.indy.net>
Subject: Re: Advise please
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com, titania@indy.net (Deanna Roberts)
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 02:42:10 -0500 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960912042029.006917c4@popd.ix.netcom.com> from "Laura Goodwin" at Sep 12, 96 00:20:29 am
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Okay. This is a Femsupremacy mailing list. I -knew- this was a
Femsupremacy mailing list when I saw it on the sight I found it on, I
knew I was distinctly -not- definable as a Femsupremist, before I joined
and I up and joined anyway, read several days worth of mail to get the
general 'flavor' of the discourse, saw an intelligent group of people
debating an interesting philosophy (albeit one I disagreed with on a
number of levels) and wanted to know the rationale behind the philosophy.

I posted a long, fairly involved letter, and have gotten a great
deal from the responses to that letter, positive and negative, and have
attempted to follow the threads resulting from it to the best of my
ability. Some of the areas I -thought- I knew fairly well, I obviously
need more education in but even -that- information is not information I
would have had had I not involved myself. Some other areas I believe I
made valid points in, and -hopefully- explained -my- rationale and
assumptions fairly well.

However I have evidently -not- been as polite in my debate as I
would have hoped, and have severely offended at least one person and
noted that at least two others evidently feel me to be a disruptive
influence whose presence would not be missed. If I felt my writing skills
and ability to communicate were up to the task of maintaining a higher
level of decorum on a consistent basis, I might simply refrain from
posting unless I could consistently maintain such a level of decorum. I
will confess I didn't see that such a level was necessary, but, a guest
in my home is not permitted the same level of familiarity as someone whom
I have supped with for years, and I -am- the interloper who barged in
requesting the secrets of the universe in small, easy-to-handle pieces,
so perhaps it is a level that -I- need to be held to, if I am to debate
on a list from an essentially contradictory viewpoint.

At any rate, it's not a level of decorum I can trust myself -to-
hold to, and I therefore need a (consensus is not quite the right term,
but I can't think of anything better) from those with a long-term
understanding of the nature of debate on this mailing list.

I doubt I can maintain a level of decorum in any questions or
debate in this list of any notably higher level than that I have already
shown in most of my letters to this list. Nor am I likely to drop any
notably below the level of those items I've already posted.

So the question becomes, do I, as an person already announced to
be in conflict on some levels with the espoused views of those on this
mailing list, have a right or a need to remain on this list against the
notable objections of members in good standing who feel that there is a
certain basic assumption that, females or feminine qualities, however
defined, are intrinsically superior to males or masculine qualities, that
should be shared by anyone actively participating in discourse on this
list, and that those who are -not- in alignment with that assumption,
should debate their philosophy elsewhere.

If this is the consensus of the group as a whole, or of a large
minority, then I will depart the area rather than be a source of further
friction within the list.

Until I have a reasonable amount of data either way, I'm going to
remove myself to lurker status, watch any final opinions on what I've
seen so far, and wait until I have enough data to justify either leaving,
or rejoining the debate of issues myself.

To facilitate the keeping of private matters private and not
cluttering up the list with what is, essentially, not a matter concerning
Gynosupremacy in any but the most peripheral way, my E-Mail address is
pugugly@indy.net. The choice of whether to use it is of course completely
up to the respondent, but while it inevitably means that the personal
E-Mail addresses of various members will be on my computer until such
time as I remove them (Unless someone -specifically- requests that I
should not do so), as well as making the consensus something that will
-not- be public knowledge, it also avoids the fact that I have,
unfortunately, seen differences of opinion turn into flame wars over
less, and while I would be surprised at such an event in what has been
for the most part a very polite exchange of opinions, I would
nevertheless not care to take the responsibility for instigating one when
a small amount of care can avoid it.

I apologize for the length of this post and any emotional
overtones that may have slipped by me during my writing of it. I did
not want there to be any misunderstandings regarding what I was
requesting of the list or the validity of the reasoning that I should not
be debating a point of view essentially outside the confines of the list.

Thank You
Jonnan West
pugugly@indy.net

the subject "help".


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From: femsupremacy-digest-request@renaissoft.com
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------------------------------

Content-Type: text/plain

femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 15

Today's Topics:
Re: Advise please
Re: Advise please
Re: Egalitarian vs Femsupremacy
Re: Egalitarian vs Femsupremacy
Re: Egalitarian vs Femsupremacy
Delay In Messages
Re: Egalitarian vs Femsupremacy
Re: Good&Bad Will
Re: Advise please
Life-sapping analysis
Re: Advise please
Re: God/Goddess Worship
Re: Is all S&M sexual?
Take this to email, why not? (Re: Central vs. Peripheral)
Re: Egalitarian vs Femsupremacy
Re: Egalitarian vs Femsupremacy

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 02:42:10 -0500 (EST)
From: Jonnan West
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com, titania@indy.net (Deanna Roberts)
Subject: Re: Advise please
Message-Id: <199609120742.CAA20612@indy1.indy.net>
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 5141

Okay. This is a Femsupremacy mailing list. I -knew- this was a
Femsupremacy mailing list when I saw it on the sight I found it on, I
knew I was distinctly -not- definable as a Femsupremist, before I joined
and I up and joined anyway, read several days worth of mail to get the
general 'flavor' of the discourse, saw an intelligent group of people
debating an interesting philosophy (albeit one I disagreed with on a
number of levels) and wanted to know the rationale behind the philosophy.

I posted a long, fairly involved letter, and have gotten a great
deal from the responses to that letter, positive and negative, and have
attempted to follow the threads resulting from it to the best of my
ability. Some of the areas I -thought- I knew fairly well, I obviously
need more education in but even -that- information is not information I
would have had had I not involved myself. Some other areas I believe I
made valid points in, and -hopefully- explained -my- rationale and
assumptions fairly well.

However I have evidently -not- been as polite in my debate as I
would have hoped, and have severely offended at least one person and
noted that at least two others evidently feel me to be a disruptive
influence whose presence would not be missed. If I felt my writing skills
and ability to communicate were up to the task of maintaining a higher
level of decorum on a consistent basis, I might simply refrain from
posting unless I could consistently maintain such a level of decorum. I
will confess I didn't see that such a level was necessary, but, a guest
in my home is not permitted the same level of familiarity as someone whom
I have supped with for years, and I -am- the interloper who barged in
requesting the secrets of the universe in small, easy-to-handle pieces,
so perhaps it is a level that -I- need to be held to, if I am to debate
on a list from an essentially contradictory viewpoint.

At any rate, it's not a level of decorum I can trust myself -to-
hold to, and I therefore need a (consensus is not quite the right term,
but I can't think of anything better) from those with a long-term
understanding of the nature of debate on this mailing list.

I doubt I can maintain a level of decorum in any questions or
debate in this list of any notably higher level than that I have already
shown in most of my letters to this list. Nor am I likely to drop any
notably below the level of those items I've already posted.

So the question becomes, do I, as an person already announced to
be in conflict on some levels with the espoused views of those on this
mailing list, have a right or a need to remain on this list against the
notable objections of members in good standing who feel that there is a
certain basic assumption that, females or feminine qualities, however
defined, are intrinsically superior to males or masculine qualities, that
should be shared by anyone actively participating in discourse on this
list, and that those who are -not- in alignment with that assumption,
should debate their philosophy elsewhere.

If this is the consensus of the group as a whole, or of a large
minority, then I will depart the area rather than be a source of further
friction within the list.

Until I have a reasonable amount of data either way, I'm going to
remove myself to lurker status, watch any final opinions on what I've
seen so far, and wait until I have enough data to justify either leaving,
or rejoining the debate of issues myself.

To facilitate the keeping of private matters private and not
cluttering up the list with what is, essentially, not a matter concerning
Gynosupremacy in any but the most peripheral way, my E-Mail address is
pugugly@indy.net. The choice of whether to use it is of course completely
up to the respondent, but while it inevitably means that the personal
E-Mail addresses of various members will be on my computer until such
time as I remove them (Unless someone -specifically- requests that I
should not do so), as well as making the consensus something that will
-not- be public knowledge, it also avoids the fact that I have,
unfortunately, seen differences of opinion turn into flame wars over
less, and while I would be surprised at such an event in what has been
for the most part a very polite exchange of opinions, I would
nevertheless not care to take the responsibility for instigating one when
a small amount of care can avoid it.

I apologize for the length of this post and any emotional
overtones that may have slipped by me during my writing of it. I did
not want there to be any misunderstandings regarding what I was
requesting of the list or the validity of the reasoning that I should not
be debating a point of view essentially outside the confines of the list.

Thank You
Jonnan West
pugugly@indy.net

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 01:14:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Advise please
Message-Id: <199609120814.BAA03624@catherine.renaissoft.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 3244

Jonnan West wrote:

[I've deleted much of this for brevity's sake.]

> However I have evidently -not- been as polite in my debate as I
> would have hoped, and have severely offended at least one person and
> noted that at least two others evidently feel me to be a disruptive
> influence whose presence would not be missed. If I felt my writing skills
> and ability to communicate were up to the task of maintaining a higher
> level of decorum on a consistent basis, I might simply refrain from
> posting unless I could consistently maintain such a level of decorum. I
> will confess I didn't see that such a level was necessary, but, a guest
> in my home is not permitted the same level of familiarity as someone whom
> I have supped with for years, and I -am- the interloper who barged in
> requesting the secrets of the universe in small, easy-to-handle pieces,
> so perhaps it is a level that -I- need to be held to, if I am to debate
> on a list from an essentially contradictory viewpoint.

Perhaps I was not clear that when I did some chastizing in one of my
responses to you, they weren't entirely directed at you. I've sent
you a more detailed response as to my feelings on "your behaviour"
privately, I'm just responding publically here on things that are
important for the overall list.

People who come here aren't REQUIRED to believe in female supremacy.
Those who don't believe we ask to be polite (which you are), and not
abuse folks on the list. The main feeling of resistance you may be
getting may be from the simple fact that it's difficult to just up and
explain why you believe in something you feel deeply about. For some,
female supremacy is very spiritual, it's hard to write a short,
consise essay of "Why I believe in Female Supremacy" when this is the
case.

> At any rate, it's not a level of decorum I can trust myself -to-
> hold to, and I therefore need a (consensus is not quite the right term,
> but I can't think of anything better) from those with a long-term
> understanding of the nature of debate on this mailing list.

The main rule is simple. No flaming. I have and will tell people to
quit it when things get reduced to flaming. There's also the harder
to quantify thing of people just being plain annoying. Folks who just
exist to bait people on the list, or just exist to make people want to
strangle them. It's hard to draw that line, I try my best to be fair
about it, but I can't say you've strayed near it.

> Until I have a reasonable amount of data either way, I'm going to
> remove myself to lurker status, watch any final opinions on what I've
> seen so far, and wait until I have enough data to justify either leaving,
> or rejoining the debate of issues myself.

This is of course, your choice. I don't see that you need to do so.
Perhaps keep in mind what I've said here and in private to you. I
don't speak for the whole list, but I do speak for "official list
policy."

Dee-Ann

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 07:20:55 GMT
From: Peter Saxton
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Egalitarian vs Femsupremacy
Message-ID: <32378030.104982321@post.demon.co.uk>

On Mon, 09 Sep 1996 11:26:33 -0400, Laura wrote:

>Women are superior to men, so it would not be assumed superiority. It's
>equality that is assumed.
>
> If women weren't superior to men, then men wouldn't need to handicap them
>so severely to keep them disadvantaged. If women weren't naturally strong
>and dominant, men could just relax and wouldn't have to work so hard at
>keeping them down. Women want equality under the law so we can assert our
>natural dominance. Men know that women wouldn't stay equal for long, so
>they fight it.
>
I don't think that men think about it that deeply even when they do
try to make it difficult for women.

One of the main reasons why more women don't reach positions of power
is they tend to spread themselves too thinly doing all the things that
need to be done while men tend to concentrate on a subject and ignore
other things.

Although I agree that women are superior to men I can't imagine how
the world will develop. Will it just be like today but with as many
women in positions of power as men are now and more men will have the
lowly jobs .... or will society grant women some institutionalised
power? My guess is the former.

peter


Peter Saxton, from London
peter@psaxton.demon.co.uk

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 07:20:48 GMT
From: Peter Saxton
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Egalitarian vs Femsupremacy
Message-ID: <32377e90.104566797@post.demon.co.uk>

On Wed, 11 Sep 1996 14:45:03 -0400, Laura wrote:

>Here's some scat-logic for literal types:
>
>Everything that women produce is shit
>Women produce males
>Therefore males are shit! ;)
>
Don't women produce females, too?

Peter Saxton, from London
peter@psaxton.demon.co.uk

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 08:32:06 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Egalitarian vs Femsupremacy
Message-ID: <32382CF6.4F3A@tiac.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Jonnan West wrote:
> The Terror was noted for the female involvement,
> which may -imply- that there was little female involvement in the
> protestant catholic wars and the accusations during the inquisition.

Patricia Writes:

Women did not design the manifestos or the systems to impose these
regimes. God, here we go with the damned if we do damned if we don't
stuff. Of course women were involved...we live under the same
patriarchal system...we follow the boys or die, many of us die. We
don't know of our own power unless we are fortunate enought to find our
own herstory buried so well by the Patriarchy. Hitler was not a woman
nor were the chief bosses of his regime women. That women exist under a
patriarchal system as best they can is understandable. and the 9
million women who were killed during the European witch hunts....were a
good example for those women to shut up and follow the boys...


jonnan writes:

> Millions is about three orders of magnitude below Billions,

Patrricia replies:

millions to one research university...millions time hundreds of
Research Universities who received such funding is billions and I really
am growing tired of you not even attempting to listen.
PATRICIA
>

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 05:37:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: Barry Emerson Wright
To: femsupremacy
Subject: Delay In Messages
Message-ID:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Friends,

I've gotten no mail from FS since yesterday and I know some
folks have posted, including myself. Is the problem with the List or my
ISP? If anyone is getting FS messages, I would be very grateful if you
would e-mail me and let me know.

Thank you,

Barry

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 08:37:29 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Egalitarian vs Femsupremacy
Message-ID: <32382E39.16F4@tiac.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Jonnan West wrote:
> Had she said 'military', Department of Defense, or even 'Those
> asses at the Pentagon' I would've agreed wholeheartedly. But she was
> speaking exclusively of Nasa and her context applied it even more
> narrowly towards exploratory and research programs as if they were
> costing us billions.

Patricia wrote:

I never mentioned NASA..you did. Our research money did not come from
NASA...or the Military Budget....just like a man putting his words in my
mouth and then attacking me for using them.

Patricia

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 08:42:53 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Good&Bad Will
Message-ID: <32382F7D.70B3@tiac.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

good idea centrifuge them....
Patricia


Dee-Ann LeBlanc wrote:
>
> jet wrote:
> >
> > I've read something about this, and also have seen it made fun of in
> > several movies about making babies ("9 Months" is one that comes to
> > mind). I believe the theory is: if a male eats certain foods for
> > a period of time before he fertilizes a woman, he will produce more of
> > the sperm with either an x or a y chromosome. So, for instance, if he
> > eats more meat, he will produce more y chromosomes or if he eats mroe
> > vegies or maybe chichen, he will produce more x chromosomes.
>
> Just a little humor here, but true humor. Male fighter pilots tend to
> produce girls. This is apparently because of the G-forces they go
> through. My husband jokes that I'm going to put him through a
> centrafuge if we ever decide to get down to the business of conceiving
> a child.
>
> Dee-Ann
>
> ___________________________________________________________________
> Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
> For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
> mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 08:54:08 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Advise please
Message-ID: <32383220.6922@tiac.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

This feels like a plea for attention...oh please Jonnan stay..I don't
play that game anymore and will not be manipulated into it at this late
stage. Stay if you really want to learn...I certainly have spent much
time getting information to help you understand. If you just want to be
the winner of a debate...lurk..delurk..whatever. You seem to be under
the impression that the books have told you everything. but the books
are written under a patriarchal system that only rewards those who
uphold the system...you seem to have difficulty understanding that basic
premise.
Patricia


(deleted alot)

> Jonnan West wrote:
>
>
> > At any rate, it's not a level of decorum I can trust myself -to-
> > hold to, and I therefore need a (consensus is not quite the right term,
> > but I can't think of anything better) from those with a long-term
> > understanding of the nature of debate on this mailing list.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 09:25:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Micah L. Martin"
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Life-sapping analysis
Message-ID:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Wed, 11 Sep 1996, Laura Goodwin wrote:

> There is zero point value in these life-sapping point by point analyses of
> "opinions".

I hope you don't think I did this as a sort of game, and knew a better way
of doing things but chose this one. Life-sapping point by point analysis
is what I spent years in graduate school learning to do, and it happens
more or less automatically with me if someone says "X, therefore Y." I
tend to take that as a hint that the person is proposing that we engage in
a little game of life-sapping analysis--it is how I was raised.

> It's starting to look like a disruptive tactic, and we are wise to such
> tricks, OK?

It isn't a tactic or a trick, it's me. That is who I *am*, at least on the
pure ego level. Believe it or not, I *can* also work on the level of
speaking from the heart, and of how I feel; and we would probably get on
better on that level than we have with life-sapping analysis.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 09:22:45 +0100
From: robert and fiona forsythe
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Advise please
Message-ID:

Jonnan

you're fine by us,
just perhaps see if you can shorten things down sometime (coming from
us!). we are not worried about bandwidth but we simply end up skimming
and so may miss some gem.

I
--
fiona and robert forsythe

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 07:40:13 -0800
From: leather@zephyr.net (leather)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: God/Goddess Worship
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>Jet wrote-
>
>Thank you for the beautiful and haunting poem (to Patricia)...it is one of
>my >favorites as well.

I have never heard that one before and it moved me so much, I printed it
out and will share it at my Womens Cirle tonight. (We meet every month on
the New Moon.)

>Here is a class example of a woman who was squashed by
>patriarchy... I can understand and this is why I subscribe to this list
>and I am trying to raise my daughter with the high ideals I see here.
>I do not want her to have to struggle as we do and hope that by the time
>she is an adult, it will be more equal or at the very least much more
>supportive of women. If not, perhaps she will be another of the catalysts.

I have two teenage sons. Teaching them the concepts of FS has not been
easy. Society teaches them something different (men have "the" power)... it
is a struggle for them to choose not to buy into it.

As a girl, I would have chosen FS was an option instead of resign to
females finding a man and cleaving (in submission) to him. Ack!!! Thank
Goddess I grew up and discovered My own truths! I'd hate to have died early
and ignorant... never having known the pleasure of My "own" power!

Leather

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the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 08:04:19 -0800
From: leather@zephyr.net (leather)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Is all S&M sexual?
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Peter wrote...
>
>All I can say is that many times I have done things for women when I
>knew that it would not lead to sex and sometimes I have done things
>for women and felt very happy about doing them even though the woman
>would not know that I had done them and so I could not even be
>rewarded by them woman looking favourably towards me.



Paint my house!

Leather

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the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 11:36:34 -0400
From: Laura Goodwin
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com, femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Take this to email, why not? (Re: Central vs. Peripheral)
Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960912153634.006aad6c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 11:19 PM 9/11/96 -0400, Micah L. Martin wrote:
>On Wed, 11 Sep 1996, Jonnan West wrote:

...and wrote and wrote and wrote...

This is the femsupremacy list. Try to stay on topic. Dee-Ann?
Laura Goodwin


"All forms of fanaticism are suspect. The humane society
of the future, which we now build, will appreciate diversity
and reward tolerant behavior."

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 11:39:37 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Micah L. Martin"
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Egalitarian vs Femsupremacy
Message-ID:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Wed, 11 Sep 1996, Dee-Ann LeBlanc wrote:

> > One thing I will do is take people literally, rather than attempting to
> > guess what they really meant. No doubt this can be irritating, but
> > characterizing it as blatant misrepresentation I don't buy.

> This is an amusing little game you love to play, ToyLet/Micah. It, as
> always, is childish and very quickly becomes tiresome.

"ToyLet Micah?"

It's not a game, it's the way I am. You are at liberty not to like me,
while I am not at liberty to be someone else, whom you would like better.

> You're supposed to actually think.

But I do. People think in different ways, and have been educated in
different ways. In any case, not thinking needs to be distinguished from
not agreeing.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 11:51:39 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Micah L. Martin"
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Egalitarian vs Femsupremacy
Message-ID:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Thu, 12 Sep 1996, Peter Saxton wrote:
> On Wed, 11 Sep 1996 14:45:03 -0400, Laura wrote:

> >Here's some scat-logic for literal types:

> >Everything that women produce is shit
> >Women produce males
> >Therefore males are shit! ;)

> Don't women produce females, too?

That's a _reductio_, Peter. It's how I got into trouble in the first
place.

the subject "help".

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End of femsupremacy-digest Digest V96 Issue #15
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